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-- MvC2 rankings -- by request (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37469)

Posted by Viscant on August 26th, 2001 10:11 PM:
MvC2 rankings -- by request

Since I was asked I guess I'll give my two cents.
MvC2 is too hard to rank right now because you have to look at it in different ways. There are 56 selectable characters, about 35 playable characters (give or take 5 or 10) and about 15 characters that are extremely common. For the most part, I only bother with the 2nd set of two, the common tournament characters and the ones that are possible and proven and I don't really care what the Charlies and BB Hood's of the game are going to pull out.
But if you look at the OVERALL picture (like how Gamest used to do 10 point scale round robins), there is a 4 character top tier.
t-1. Sentinel/Storm
3. Cable
4. Spiral
These 4 pile up so many 10-0s against the characters that don't matter that they blow away the rest of the top tier. If you don't have the tools to fight these 4, you have no chance of winning. Period. Lower tier characters occasionally get a chance against Magneto or Doom because they don't have "I-win-for-free" tactics. Strider occasionally will lose to anyone because if he screws up once, he loses no matter who he's playing against (assuming that the lower tier character player is at least bright enough to have picked in a strong DHC order or whatever). But if Storm doesn't want to let you have a chance, she doesn't have to. I can call helpers all I want, run until I get bored and unless you're a pretty good character, you don't have a chance. Sentinel can fly backwards faster than most offensive characters can move forward. And Spiral and Cable are no brainers. But again, this way of looking at the game doesn't matter.
When you look at characters that matter to the game, rankings are a bit different.

t-1: Storm/Sentinel--Too close to call so I won't bother making a real decision. The head to head match is even, they both dominate everyone aside from their few counter characters (Strider, Cyclops, Cable for Sentinel // Strider, Dhalsim, Cyclops for Storm). Learning stomp-o-meter for Sentinel just went to make him unfair against everyone who isn't Strider (since he would rather you blocked anyways) and brought his matches against his other 2 counters (summers' family) closer to 6-4 territory than the 10-0 he was looking at only a couple months ago. With Storm, the main new trick she has lately is SJ cancelling against helpers. Everyone can SJ cancel, but with Storm, her low fierce is so fast (and since it's a launcher, it's the easiest to SJ cancel) that even Cable can't call helpers successfully against Storm. It's definitely not practical and I don't even think it's POSSIBLE to AHVB Storm when she low fierces a helper, so that just solidifies her complete domination over Cable and other helper driven characters.
3. Strider--I moved him down a little since last time but why bother. The entire strategy of anyone playing against Strider is "get lucky". If the joysticks are good and Strider doesn't feel like making a mistake, you will lose. If you aren't Felicia, you lost this match at the select screen. I don't care if nobody is technically sound enough to do it perfectly, it CAN be done. And you don't even NEED to do a trap style to play Strider. You can play like Alex does now and drop Doom well early and not worry about repeating orbs. Why does Strider even need to repeat orbs against anyone but Cable? It's not like letting you get away temporarily is going to solve anything. You don't even need Doom to play Strider that style. Sentinel or Spiral is good enough for hit and run style Strider and gives you more freedom in constructing a team. To everyone who says there are no advances in Strider play, oh there are advances and there are new Strider strategies. If you don't know how to do them, are too lazy to do them or are not precise enough to do them, that's your problem. Not the character's.
4. Spiral--There is no real counter character threat with Spiral. She's one of the most misunderstood characters in the game since for the most part, there's only ONE Spiral in the entire United States. As far ahead as Duc is compared to everyone else playing Spiral, they might as well not even be playing the same game. Oh sure, some things do better than others against Spiral. Magneto does OK. Then Spiral gets knives. And he stops moving and dies. Iceman does great. Then he lands. And he stops moving and dies. Doom/Storm do probably the best against Spiral but is that a free match? Of course not. Spiral has cards to play in that fight too. And she can force your hand by teleporting. Yes, you CAN hit her when she teleports. But do you want to?
5. Dr.Doom--It's mind boggling that anyone even bothered to question whether Doom was a top tier character or not. For people who only think that Doom has photons, that's their problem, but photons are only minor to Doom's game. Most of the way I use photons are just as setups. Everybody knows that you CAN wavedash under Doom's photons. But should you? That depends. Go ahead and wavedash. What if I was in the corner? Now you've just quadrupled your problems as I can fall on you into an infinite, or now you can get severely rushed down. Also at B5 I saw NOBODY using Doom's single best move. Standing fierce. As much as people say they've figured out Doom, they need to go back to the shop and try again because they're a long way off from how Doom is REALLY played.
6. Cable--I moved him up a little because the results are still there for him. I can tell people over and over how to eat Cable's lunch, people can claim that they don't use Cable anymore, but when it comes down to crunch time, aside from 4-5 top tournament players, who do ALL you people go back to? Yeah, it's Cable. Even though the majority of these people are irrelevant when you look at rankings (does it matter who you were using after Duc, Valle and Justin just kicked your ass?), 10,000 scrubs can't be wrong. Wait...they are, but not totally.
7. Magneto--Magneto is probably my least favorite character in the game and it's my personal opinion that the game would have been better were he, Storm and Sentinel not in it. Magneto is a walking randomizer. If you aren't as good as your opponent, you should always play either Magneto or Cable. Why? Because you might randomly land a hit and get a free win. No character in any fighting game moves as fast as Magneto. Magneto is literally faster than the human mind can process. Tournament results have proven that nobody can block Magneto at a better than 50% ratio. People used to joke about Magneto being unblockable. As far as I'm concerned, he is. Whether he is literally has yet to be determined. It's entirely possible that Magneto has a resurrection of Captain America's low forward glitch from MSH, and after thinking about it for awhile, I tested with fast crossups and as near as I can tell, occasionally it is. But whether it is really or not, for all practical intents and purposes, whenever Magneto gets within melee range, expect to take damage. That said, I've moved him down towards the lower end of the top tier because for there are practical strategies to never ever let him get within that range. There are only 2 or 3 Magnetos in the US that can really make him a consistent force these days. Peter Rosas, ShadyK and Justin. Beyond that, aside from random luck, Magneto is very played out.
8. Cyclops--If you doubt Cyclops, you missed B5. He can do all sorts of things off a single connected hit. Can Americans do the infinite? Why not? Because we're lazy. White wasn't having much trouble with it, was he? It's not the character's fault, it's our fault. Anyways, the only reason Cyclops is this low is the prevalence of Cable. The only 2 characters that actually beat Cyclops are Cable and Strider. He will tend to lose more than he wins against Magneto, but that match is the standard random Magneto match. Aside from that, he really has no weaknesses AND he has an infinite AND he has a great helper AND he is the best at stopping runaway. I don't think he's that complicated to play, but looking at how inoften people play him CORRECTLY, maybe he is?

That's where I break off the top tier list now. Beyond that in order I put the 2nd tier like this
9. Iceman
10. Blackheart
11. Dhalsim
12. Iron Man
13. Ruby Heart
14. Megaman
15. War Machine
16. Psylocke
17. Silver Samurai
18. Colossus
19. Cammy
20. Captain Commando

A few common questions that will be asked that I'll answer now to save time in advance.
--Why is Blackheart so low?
Look at who's above him. Do you see any wins in that list. I don't either. Yes, he has a great helper. But the results as a point character are simply not there anymore. His primary purpose (stopping Magneto) doesn't work anymore (low rh is a juggle remember, so if Blackheart ever jumps back with demons, he's going to die).
--Why isn't Iron Man top tier?
Again, look at the characters that are in front of him. Are there ANY wins for him? Maybe Cable, maybe Iceman. That's about it. If you put him with Doom, then yeah, he and War Machine stand a pretty good shot on Cable. But for the most part, the flashy infinite assault is the most overrated thing in Marvel. You expect someone that slow to rush down consistently? Really? Why?
--What do you think of Cammy?
Cammy is a Justin only character. NOBODY else makes her good. Look at my match with Mike D at B5. If he picked Cyclops he would have won that match. I had Sentinel/Doom/Storm all at less than 15% and a full Cammy drops in. Since she's Cammy and has nothing to stop me from flying, I could fly as much as I want and drop Doom as much as I want. If he had Cyclops he could have probably won that match without taking much damage. But I beat his Cammy without taking any clean hits, simply because Cammy cannot threaten top tier characters. As far as I'm concerned Justin is Justin. He can play almost whoever he wants because he's the best MvC2 player out there right now. It's still a game of skill and the best player will win over players with inferior skills more often than not. He wins with Cammy because HE is a better player, not because Cammy is a better character. Nobody else can do it but him. All the Magnetos that have Cammy would win more if they picked Psylocke. All the Cables that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Cyclops. All the Sentinels that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Commando. Justin biting is pathetic and it's not even effective.

--Jay Snyder
Le Viscant

Posted by vega2001 on August 26th, 2001 10:48 PM:

Thanks man. Everybody was looking for you the other day. Congratulations at B5.

Posted by Ray on August 26th, 2001 10:55 PM:

Hey thanks for taking the time to write that.

I really enjoyed reading that.
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Posted by ghouki on August 26th, 2001 10:58 PM:

Great rankings Viscant! I;m just curious about how Cyclops stops runaway. I guess I don't play him that much, so I wouldn't know.

Posted by FFRonin on August 26th, 2001 11:21 PM:

clops has nice horizontal coverage, and viscant has a good point, the Justin biting is amazing popular.
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Posted by G&D on August 26th, 2001 11:26 PM:

nice shit,(even though i disagree about some of the magneto stuff, o well) damm hope justin's fans feeins aint hurt.
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Posted by Sho 2 on August 26th, 2001 11:42 PM:

Excellent Work. Wouldn't have said better myself. Viscant, I was just wondering who are the other 15 usable people?

Posted by icjones on August 26th, 2001 11:47 PM:

Great article!!!!!

Posted by ID on August 27th, 2001 12:12 AM:

Good post, but too much favoritism.
You can hate magneto all you want..but comparing him to the easyness of cable?
Please.
Magneto is getting harder and harder to play..If your rushdown isnt GREAT, you dont have rushdown at all.
And a GREAT rushdown is No easy thing to achieve.
Blackheart, not being top tier?
More favoritism..As much as I hate and despise blackheart..fact is, he's good..and as much as you may not like it, BH owns cyclops, and doom.

Other then the off placement of magneto and BH, your list is right on.
IMO, Magneto belongs in atleast #3.
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Posted by Tenken on August 27th, 2001 12:23 AM:

Viscant, you provide yet another interesting article. Only one thing I disagree with. Why is Strider ranked so high and Magneto so low? Many people claim that if Strider is played to maximum efficiency that he is unbeatable and I agree, but isn't Magneto similar in that respect? The whole theory behind Magneto is that you have to capitalize on even the slightest mistake or else you give away the game. The problem is that either he is played incorrectly by "Justin biters" or that people who do know how to play him, blow the opportunity when one arises. I believe that if Magneto is played to near perfection he beats almost everyone and every team. I think you could even make a valid argument for Dhalsim under the same circumstances, but what do I know? Anyway, good article and good rankings.

~Tenken

Posted by Jay Wang on August 27th, 2001 12:47 AM:

hey viscant, excellent post. it's always intresting to see the veiws of the top players...

neways, while reading thru, i saw that u mentioned something about a storm SJ cancel vs helpers? care to explain/elaborate? and what do u mean when u say "stomp o meter" with sent? sorry for sounding so scrubby, but ur answers will be appreciated! thnx!
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Posted by ShadyK on August 27th, 2001 12:48 AM:

How is Magneto #7? UNDER Cable? Damnit Viscant. Random garbage is part of MvC2, so randomly being able to block Magneto's shit should be part of why he should be placed higher. Noone from T1-6 beats Magneto clean except Strider. Magneto vs Sent is almost as even as Storm vs Sent, IMO. If Sent is flying in the wrong area, Magneto can put him in the infinite easily. You saw it last night... hehe.

Anyway, IMO, tiers go:
T1 - Storm/Sent
3 - Spiral/Strider
5 - Magneto
6 - Cable
7 - Doom
8 - Cyclops

I agree w/ Viscant though and I think BH sucks now since after seeing 89324783274374 Blackhearts out there do the same thing for the past year.

IMO, Cammy should be higher. She has that "randomness" that Magneto has that costs the other character 50% every time they fuck up. Not only that, but she IS the best assist to use against Sent, BH, and VERY annoying against Magneto since she heat seeks (crossing up doesn't avoid her).

True she loses to Cyclops and Psylocke 1v1, but then again she has assists too (at least Storm/Magneto projectile if they haven't died yet) which makes up for her lack of a projectile. Plus, she owns Cable and Doom. To me, she's like a dumbed down Magneto.

"All the Magnetos that have Cammy would win more if they picked Psylocke. All the Cables that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Cyclops. All the Sentinels that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Commando. Justin biting is pathetic and it's not even effective."

Well, in my experience, I get more solid winstreaks with Mag/Cammy than I do with Mag/Psylocke. People've been mashing out of my tempests more and more often, so I've been opting to use Cammy and just go for shockwave combos that do 50-70% and still have that anti-Sentinel assist. Shrug, Mag/Psy SHOULD be better, but the next tourney I'm just gonna have to be a Justin biter and use Mag/Cammy. :\
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Posted by BrazilionBH on August 27th, 2001 01:23 AM:

I agree with everything you say but how do you use Domms S.feirce into his game?...

Posted by Crimson_Samurai on August 27th, 2001 01:34 AM:

I agree with Viscants ranking except for Strider. I don't think he even belongs in 1st tier. But a good person to swap him with would be Blackheart . I also agree with his statement with Magneto. More and more he is becoming less effective, but he will always occasionally bust out and thats just something every player has to deal with. O'well.

Magneto =

Posted by HHZ on August 27th, 2001 01:44 AM:

i agree with shadyk cuz magneto can put up a fight while strider can cut him pretty good. the top 8 has to be:

1. storm/sentinel/cable
4. strider/magneto
6. doom
7. spiral
8. cammy

but this is all my opinion
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Posted by margalis on August 27th, 2001 02:21 AM:

Nobody actually wins with Strider...so I don't see how he can be top tier. What he can do if played "perfectly" is pretty irrelevant. Lots of characters can probably do something really good if played to perfection. But tournaments don't take place is perfecto-world, they take place in reality. And in reality he doesn't win.

You can say that if the opponent is better than you choose Magneto or Cable because you get a chance to randomly win. Well when you choose Strider you get a chance to randomly lose. You will make mistakes, and if the opponent capitalizes on them you can give away a random victory.

Posted by L337Shizumaru on August 27th, 2001 02:25 AM:

One on one, Cammy destroys BH and Doom. She should be higher on your list than 20th, Viscant.

Posted by G&D on August 27th, 2001 03:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BrazilionBH
I agree with everything you say but how do you use Domms S.feirce into his game?...

quick
hella priority
knocks shit out opponent
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Posted by Danger Moose on August 27th, 2001 03:38 AM:

how does felicia stop strider?

Posted by BarrelO on August 27th, 2001 03:42 AM:

Interesting post. However, I must STRONGLY disagree with your ranking of Blackheart. In my opinion, he's easily top tier. Almost all of his deficiencies as a point character are made up for by Commando assist. And he still beats Magneto. More than anything, doing jump back fierce from a distance (and it IS fierce; I don't know why anybody in his right mind would do normal jump roundhouse) extends the sense that you are still being attacked, kind of like when John Choi does standing jabs from a distance. And he really shouldn't be doing this when Magneto is within low roundhouse range anyway; calling Commando is better. After Commando hits or is blocked, Blackheart's back within ideal jump back fierce range. Magneto's eventually going to get frustrated, and he's probably going to run into a few demons and Corridors along the way. I'm sure there are threoretical holes to this, but I'm going by real world results. I've used this strategy against every Magneto I've faced, and the only times I didn't come out on top (or at least with the advantage) were directly due to screwups on my part. And don't say it was because I was going against shitty Magnetos; I've played against Duc. Not to mention about a million other Magnetos at B5. When he has Commando, he can definitely hang with Storm and Sentinel, and I think he has the edge on Doom and Cyclops (I can elaborate if you like). In my experience, his only real bad matches are Cable on point and Commando and Ken as assists (Cammy bounces off demons).

Speaking of which, why don't you have Ken higher? His AAA blows out everything, and you've said before that you thought Ken was better on point than Cammy. So, uh, what's the dealie, yo?

Also, if you don't mind my asking, which third character do you think complements Strider/Doom best? I've tried Commando, Cable, and Ken, all with varying degrees of success. And I've been thinking about trying Sentinel.

One more thing: the proper word is "unoften." Just thought I'd share that.

P.S. Sonic Boom crossups are cheap.
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Posted by ShadyK on August 27th, 2001 03:46 AM:

BarrelO. You're wrong. Viscant knows what he's talking about. Blackheart loses to Magneto. Don't talk like you know what you're talking about.
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Posted by Blackheart2097 on August 27th, 2001 04:04 AM:

SHADYK YOUR WRONG. BLACKHEART CAN BEAT MAGNETO. LOOK AT YOUR FISRT MATCH AGAINST ALEX VALL IN THE MULTIMEDIA SECTION DIDN'T HIS BLACKHEART RAPE U?? THE FIERCE DEMONS ANNOY MAGNUS ALONG WITH AN ANTI AIR. SI A CLOSE MATCH BUT I COULD HAVE TO GO WITH BLACKHEART ON THIS ONE. AND I WOULDN'T RATE STRIDER SO HIGH EITHER

MY TOP 8 WOULD BE:
STORM
SENTINEL
SPIRAL
CABLE
MAGNETO(HE'S JUST GETTING TOOOOO EZ!! AND PREDICTABLE)
DOOM
BLACHEART
CYCLOPS/STRIDER I DON'T KNOW WHO TO PICK

THIS IS CLEARLY MY OPINION
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Posted by BarrelO on August 27th, 2001 04:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadyK
BarrelO. You're wrong. Viscant knows what he's talking about. Blackheart loses to Magneto. Don't talk like you know what you're talking about.

Well, damn. You sure told me. I had never considered the matchup from that standpoint. Thank you for exposing the flaws in my strategy.

Seriously, lose the attitude. Just because I'm not from California doesn't mean I don't know anything about the game. Look, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Viscant. He's a hell of a player, and his analyzations of the game are almost always dead-on. But here, my personal experience has been the exact opposite of what he's saying. I looked upon B5 as pretty much the ultimate test of my anti-Magneto strategy with Blackheart. In fact, I was looking forward to playing against you. Oh, well. Maybe next time. Anyway, as I expected, the level of Magneto play was well beyond anything I had ever seen in person. And my strategy still worked. I'm not talking a few times or even the majority of the time. I'm talking every single time. As I said earlier, the only times my Blackheart didn't flat-out beat Magneto were when I screwed up, and even then, I ended up with the advantage. So I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

If I'm wrong, tell me why. I've laid out my reasons. The onus is on you to rebut me.
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Posted by Cornelius on August 27th, 2001 04:17 AM:

Tron, Omega, Morrigan, and maybe Ken should be in Tier 2.

Using Valle as a standard of comparison is a moronic idea. His Sentinel is a Cable killer. My instinct tells me that BH kills Mags, but Viscant is a very wise man and seeing as how I haven't seen this c. hk trick, I am inclined to trust him and not immediately reject his statement. Basing your argument on "look at Valle" is just stupid. Basing your argument on your experience is definitely a step up, but a) you don't have Viscant's experience, and b) I highly doubt that any of the Magnetos you played had any idea about the C. hk trick he is talking about. I understand that point A seems to be similar to a "look at Valle" argument, but no offense Mr. Snyder, but you don't really defy the counter chars rules like Valle does. That is all.

Posted by mr_d on August 27th, 2001 04:42 AM:

hmmmmmm..... I respect your tier list. I agree with ur reasons for all the characters you had up there. But I have to really disagree with Blackheart. You could say I don't know what I'm saying. But a really smart and skilled Blackheart ownz Maggneto. I've played really quick Magnetos and my blackheart did really well, he won, but he had way more skill. Hp demons stop rushdown bad. CapCom's anti-air is a pain. You just gotta learn to not bite on characters commin in and blocking. That comes with that randomness again. If you get stuck in a corner you are gonna have a hard time getting out. My Blackheart can take care of most cables. Being smart and safe is the key to playing an awesome blackheart.
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Posted by G&D on August 27th, 2001 05:12 AM:

tron, morr?!?.....uh huh....anyway

Ya shady's Mag lost to CPower's BH but in a couple of those valle/long mathes mag just got BH in an easy snapback combo and fought it out with capcom...o well

MY list
1)sent/storm
3)mag/BH
5)spiral
6)cable
7)doom
8)cyke/strider

just my list

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Posted by FMJaguar on August 27th, 2001 06:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by margalis
Nobody actually wins with Strider...so I don't see how he can be top tier. What he can do if played "perfectly" is pretty irrelevant. Lots of characters can probably do something really good if played to perfection. But tournaments don't take place is perfecto-world, they take place in reality. And in reality he doesn't win.

Most of the top players don't play strider, and a lot of them that stopped have only mentioned joystick errors on sentinel as the reason. Sentinel is tied for 1, and is the entire reason that strider isn't winning. Maybe i wouldn't put him 3, but he gives you so many garunteed wins / OCVs even it's not even funny.

In this case, the results are misleading, we already said that strider gets into trouble with sentinel, people like Duc and Justin have built tournament sentinels, hense it's hard to fit strider in. I can't remember a time when this wasn't the case, maybe i'm missing something. To get accurate results your going to have to ban sentinel for a tourney and get everyone to come out.

Normally, talking about the perfect execution, we mean doing a connecting DP every time, instead reaction times, etc... when strider is played well, it's basically "Make sure your joystick allows you to do FBs and DPs properly so you don't cling to the wall". I don't know what people are thinking, like everyone has the quality of normals, and the chain,assist,teleport options that strider does. And if you ever need more, orbs come out.

With just straightfoward play, you have TOTAL control over whether you win or lose most matches, which is pretty much the most valued possesion in a good players hands. So if you make the chart (which is what the original post said), you give sentinel his match as we said, then who else can you consider???

Posted by master ken on August 27th, 2001 06:34 AM:

Shadyk:

I totally disagree with you, if BH was a low tier then explain to me these things :

1 - How come that Valle got 2nd place at MWC playing with a low tier character
2 - How come that Valle won the last SHGL tournament beating your mag and ComboFiend's mag as well playing with a low tier character
3 - How come that Valle got 5th at B5 playing with a low tier character.

That really doesn't make sense. Bh is definitely a top tier.
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Posted by Cornelius on August 27th, 2001 06:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by master ken

Shadyk:

I totally disagree with you, if BH was a low tier then explain to me these things :

1 - How come that Valle got 2nd place at MWC playing with a low tier character
2 - How come that Valle won the last SHGL tournament beating your mag and ComboFiend's mag as well playing with a low tier character
3 - How come that Valle got 5th at B5 playing with a low tier character.

That really doesn't make sense. Bh is definitely a top tier.

I will save ShadyK and Viscant the trouble of answering this post.
1) Bh, although I do not agree with it, is placed as Tier 2. Tier 2 is not a low tier.
2) I refer you to my previous post on using Valle as a comparison.
3) Irrelevant, but Viscant beat Valle at B5.

Posted by Dilated Hadashi on August 27th, 2001 06:49 AM:

just want to say-
viscant
you rock the nuts...
hell, you rock all our nuts, except for maybe GN cause he probably rocks his own too hard for anyone else to even try....

only thing I wish is that someone had some amazing psylocke rip shit up at B5... she rocks the nuts, has sinc COTA and always will....

yeh, its spam, deal...
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Posted by Optiks on August 27th, 2001 07:17 AM:

Wow. This is really an eye opener. I can't wait for the B5 tape so I can see some of this myself.
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Posted by fateXd2 on August 27th, 2001 07:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by master ken

Shadyk:

I totally disagree with you, if BH was a low tier then explain to me these things :

1 - How come that Valle got 2nd place at MWC playing with a low tier character
2 - How come that Valle won the last SHGL tournament beating your mag and ComboFiend's mag as well playing with a low tier character
3 - How come that Valle got 5th at B5 playing with a low tier character.

That really doesn't make sense. Bh is definitely a top tier.

Viscant beat a lot of people with lower tier chars.

Does that automatically make them top-tier?

NO
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Posted by strider86 on August 27th, 2001 07:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ID
Good post, but too much favoritism.
You can hate magneto all you want..but comparing him to the easyness of cable?
Please.
Magneto is getting harder and harder to play..If your rushdown isnt GREAT, you dont have rushdown at all.
And a GREAT rushdown is No easy thing to achieve.
Blackheart, not being top tier?
More favoritism..As much as I hate and despise blackheart..fact is, he's good..and as much as you may not like it, BH owns cyclops, and doom.

Other then the off placement of magneto and BH, your list is right on.
IMO, Magneto belongs in atleast #3.

hey I-d, i think what viscant posted was to express his opinion on how the characters rank.
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Posted by NerenatwaH on August 27th, 2001 07:59 AM:

Well I agree with his tier list.

Mags has no real option except for rushdown. If you are completly halted and can't rushdown at all (what happened to ShadyK at B5 against that seattle guy) you have nothing left to do. Sure you can just build meter for Cable, but anyone could do that. Hell I can fucking have servbot on my team just to build meter and not care about him being alive.

Blackheart. He's good at keepaway. Damn good... BH/Doom stops mags and he has a good AAA. Thing is, on point. He can't do anything. Even with CapCom or Cyke. He can't really do anything. Reason people die to this goes as so:
1) They don't block.
That's it. They don't block. BH doesn't chip with demons. With Cyke and CapCom it won't help much and all you have to do is wait for BH to land and block low. With Sent just superjump backwards and block. That's it.
Example. Today I was playing a team watts against my team spiral/cable/sent. I got him in the trap a few times then he finally got out and took to the skies. He kept on throwing demons and all I had to do was turtle. He tried to go up to me and throw but I teleported when he tried. I was never damaged by BH. He tried doing infernoXXhod but I countered in Cable and AHVB.
That's it. Next time you have trouble against Valle's BH. Sit there and block. It won't chip, Sent yes but you could just super jump and block. He he does inferno counter in someone with an air super.

That's all.

About BH owning Doom and Cyke. No. Doom can actually chip. Cyke can get higher than BH and rush him down.
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Posted by Grivan on August 27th, 2001 08:06 AM:

If you wouldn't mind Viscant could you post up some of your storm strats. I am curious about the use of c.fierce and its uses.

Posted by ytwojay on August 27th, 2001 08:07 AM:

can someone tell me how cyke is so good?
i understand his assist is pretty good, but when he's on point, how is he played?
i almost always see him last to be abused as an assist, and when cyke ends up on point, its a 1 on 1 match, with cyke s. jumping and hitting rk until he feels like blowing off a super meter...
can someone elaborate without giving me the 'he can do this, he has good priority with this, blah blah blah' and give me specific examples of this?

-jay ^_^

p.s. hey viscant, r u ever gonna respond to this thread?
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Posted by ID on August 27th, 2001 08:25 AM:

uh, guys, chill..i'm sure shadyK was joking.
and yeah, this is viscant's opinion, but people who dont really play in tournaments take the top players word as law.
If viscant says cyclops is top tier, atleast 50% of the people here will beleive so. I know, because i was one of the people who thought "OH, viscant said cyclops beats blackheart..he cant be wrong".

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Posted by Xecutioner on August 27th, 2001 08:49 AM:

look ppl cyclops is top tier.imo his only bad matches is cable with an assit and sent with an aaa.he can hold his own against storm because of s.fp can stop her from doing hail storm even if she does typhoon 1st.she can run away because of sob.lets not forget the chip damage he can do with mob.if u mash right u can at least chip 25%(and if u dont believe me ask anybody who goes to cf and watch me play with him).his geneslpice is great because u can cancel into sob which takes like 40%.now when he fights cable he has a problem because if cable blocks one of his moves he can ahvb it.but u can fake cable players with c.rk into geneslpice because if the try to go for ahvb.

ill explain more about him later its too late now...........
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Posted by cheese_master on August 27th, 2001 09:22 AM:

Sup Viscant

Thanx for taking your time to post that lengthy list with good explanations. Nice to see you hating Magneto (this doesn't have anything with playing ShadyK alot does it)... well its all good. Well catch you later sometime on IRC and u can tell me about how much u dislike Vega.

To all u dipshits who don't know what the fuck they are talking about :

Shut the fuck up. He is doing you a favor by writing this shit. If it weren't for Viscant... most people outside Cali would not know the existence of SJ cancels, wavedashing, and many other advanced techniques in this game.

To all u dumbasses who don't understand BH vs Mag:

To spell this shit out... the c RH trick that Viscant talks about is... Magneto's c RH is a juggle so if BH does jump back FP demons... Magneto can wavedash and c RH and it will hit BH because he cannot block till he lands... since it juggles... he doesn't land. Off this one can SJ cancel and do either of Magneto's infinites on him or a mashable Tempest combo or a Shockwave combo. All this cuz you jumped back with BH. So now STFU till you understand all the facts okay!!!

EDIT... my bad about the SJ cancel cuz it is rollable. But a good Magnus will anticipate your roll and SJ cancel into an airdash back... and then the mix up game starts.
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Posted by blt on August 27th, 2001 02:00 PM:

mvc2 has a big 4 .. storm. sentinel, cable, magneto.

every every EVERY team that does good has at least one of those guys, and more often than not, two of them.

i think bh is a fucken bitch and all, but those 4 guys own him up.. plus dhalsim rocks him good i think.. and spiral if you use the sj fierce to prevent him from jumping, and teleport from all his chipping. two things i dont understand though: how does Doom, and Cyclops, defeat Bh / capcom (you can give doom and cyke whatever assist you want =).

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Posted by Team Strider on August 27th, 2001 02:48 PM:

Incase you are all interested. Another MvC2 Character ranking is up.

http://pub89.ezboard.com/feastcoastgamersfrm13.showMessageRange?topicID=5.topic&start=1&stop=20

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Posted by Blackheart2097 on August 27th, 2001 03:01 PM:

i never take the so called "pro's" words as always being right i disagree with alot of pro's. cyclops is top tier. he can compete with alot of people in mvsc2. magneto can only do so much. since all u guys suck magneto's dick so much alomst everyone knows how to beat him. look shadyk's magneto got raped, i heard justin's magneto got raped by sprial, at ecc sanford magento got fucked up by Ricky come on magneto isn't just what he use to be. i would but strider and magneto at a lower rank. put cyclops and blackheart higher. cyclops can do alot of chip when was the last time u did chip with magnus?? cyclops has a great assist, looks not get into magneto's assist.... cyclops is more versitille then magneto magneto is all about air combo that is y i would put magneto at a lower rank is to predictable. blackheart is predictable at times but he still can beat magnus. i just think that some of u really need to get off of magnetos's dick already. to many people use him so he isn't that hard to beat. nuff said
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Posted by HitmanStriker on August 27th, 2001 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadyK
BarrelO. You're wrong. Viscant knows what he's talking about. Blackheart loses to Magneto. Don't talk like you know what you're talking about.

Very true. Blackheart gets raped by Magneto's rushdown.
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Posted by Azn Bomber on August 27th, 2001 03:45 PM:
Re: MvC2 rankings -- by request

quote:
t-1: Storm/Sentinel--Too close to call so I won't bother making a real decision. The head to head match is even, they both dominate everyone aside from their few counter characters (Strider, Cyclops, Cable for Sentinel // Strider, Dhalsim, Cyclops for Storm).

(Thanking everyone in advance for answering my questions)
- How does Cyclops counter Sentinal?
- How does Cyclops counter Storm? (Especially Runaway Storm)

quote:
With Storm, the main new trick she has lately is SJ cancelling against helpers. Everyone can SJ cancel, but with Storm, her low fierce is so fast (and since it's a launcher, it's the easiest to SJ cancel) that even Cable can't call helpers successfully against Storm. It's definitely not practical and I don't even think it's POSSIBLE to AHVB Storm when she low fierces a helper, so that just solidifies her complete domination over Cable and other helper driven characters.]

-Can Someone help explain this just a little more to me?

quote:
5. Dr.Doom--It's mind boggling that anyone even bothered to question whether Doom was a top tier character or not. For people who only think that Doom has photons, that's their problem, but photons are only minor to Doom's game. Most of the way I use photons are just as setups. Everybody knows that you CAN wavedash under Doom's photons. But should you? That depends. Go ahead and wavedash. What if I was in the corner? Now you've just quadrupled your problems as I can fall on you into an infinite, or now you can get severely rushed down. Also at B5 I saw NOBODY using Doom's single best move. Standing fierce. As much as people say they've figured out Doom, they need to go back to the shop and try again because they're a long way off from how Doom is REALLY played.

-With Wavedashing so common, no longer can Dr.Doom's game consist of just photons.. So how would u suggest using Dr.Doom now? What characters do you think compliment him the best now?

quote:
8. Cyclops--If you doubt Cyclops, you missed B5. He can do all sorts of things off a single connected hit. Can Americans do the infinite? Why not? Because we're lazy. White wasn't having much trouble with it, was he? It's not the character's fault, it's our fault. Anyways, the only reason Cyclops is this low is the prevalence of Cable. The only 2 characters that actually beat Cyclops are Cable and Strider. He will tend to lose more than he wins against Magneto, but that match is the standard random Magneto match. Aside from that, he really has no weaknesses AND he has an infinite AND he has a great helper AND he is the best at stopping runaway. I don't think he's that complicated to play, but looking at how inoften people play him CORRECTLY, maybe he is?

- How do you play Cyclops properly?
- What are the Cyclops infinites and how do I set them up?

quote:
--Why is Blackheart so low?
Look at who's above him. Do you see any wins in that list. I don't either. Yes, he has a great helper. But the results as a point character are simply not there anymore. His primary purpose (stopping Magneto) doesn't work anymore (low rh is a juggle remember, so if Blackheart ever jumps back with demons, he's going to die).

- Does BH really belong down here? Anyone willing to explain further?

quote:
--What do you think of Cammy?
Cammy is a Justin only character. NOBODY else makes her good. Look at my match with Mike D at B5. If he picked Cyclops he would have won that match. I had Sentinel/Doom/Storm all at less than 15% and a full Cammy drops in. Since she's Cammy and has nothing to stop me from flying, I could fly as much as I want and drop Doom as much as I want. If he had Cyclops he could have probably won that match without taking much damage. But I beat his Cammy without taking any clean hits, simply because Cammy cannot threaten top tier characters. As far as I'm concerned Justin is Justin. He can play almost whoever he wants because he's the best MvC2 player out there right now. It's still a game of skill and the best player will win over players with inferior skills more often than not. He wins with Cammy because HE is a better player, not because Cammy is a better character. Nobody else can do it but him. All the Magnetos that have Cammy would win more if they picked Psylocke. All the Cables that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Cyclops. All the Sentinels that pick Cammy would win more if they picked Commando. Justin biting is pathetic and it's not even effective.

- Cammy has her invincibility in her assist, so techincally, couldn't she be used to help to break out of traps? (Whereas say Psylocke can't help?)

Just a few other questions:

Which teams do you best think counter these teams and why:

-Team Watts (Sent,BH,Cap Com)
-Spiral/Sent/Capcom
-Mags/Cable/Psy or Cammy
-Sent/Cable/Doom or Cap Com

Also, what's u're opinion on these AAA and if possible, try to point out strengths and weaknesses of each (including how strong/weak they r on point)

Cap Com AAA
Psylocke AAA
Cyclops AAA
Cammy AAA
Ken AAA
Blackheart AAA

Thanx for your time..
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Posted by Viscant on August 27th, 2001 05:11 PM:

Hm...lots of people who like Blackheart. Well, think of the game like ST kinda. Vega isn't top tier in ST. Chun-Li isn't top tier in ST. But they can still scrap their way to a few wins. Anyways, what matches do you think that Blackheart wins? Not Cable or Iceman, those are pretty much straight counter characters. I think it's generally agreed that Storm, Strider, Spiral, Commando all eat his lunch too. GOOD Magneto can beat him, but you have to have SJ cancel skills or a grip of supers because SJ cancelling is practically required when you depend on low rh. The main characters that people aren't seeing are Doom and Cyclops. OK
Doom v. Blackheart. For the sake of fairness we'll give them both the same assist. If I wanted to be unfair, I'd say that Doom gets Ken. The only thing Doom would do in this match is jump back fierce. Call Ken if Blackheart gets close, SJ back fierce if Blackheart SJs. Free match. But OK, let's say they both have Commando. Basic strategy is still intact. If Blackheart SJs, then SJ back with fierce. With ANY good anti-air assist, if Blackheart does any jumping nearby, he has to do it blocking. Doom doesn't even need an anti-air to win this one. I play with Storm or Sentinel commonly. Jump back fierce w/Storm/Sentinel then dash forward fierce, repeat as necessary until he SJs forward, then go air to air with him, using your jab to get around the tail. Doom/Storm or Doom/Sentinel also have multiple 1 hit kill shots. BH/Cyclops only has a Cyclops hit, BH/Commando only has a random shot.
Cyclops v. Blackheart. Again if I want to cheat, I'll say that Cyclops gets Ken. This fight now consists of Cyclops calling Ken and jumping around hitting RH often. The ONLY way Cyclops loses this fight is if he gets careless with MOB and BH alpha counters in Cable. Beyond that, Blackheart is a pretty easy target to shoot at because he's always in the air. Also, Cyclops builds levels at a FAR faster pace than Blackheart, and Blackheart spends most of his time in the air. Which is a safe place to chip him without the threat of an alpha counter to Cable.
IMO, there are only 4 successful Blackheart teams out right now. BH/Sentinel/Commando. BH/Cable/Commando. BH/Cable/Cyclops. BH/Cyclops/Commando. Blackheart is NOT the reason any of these are successful. The only reason these teams are threatening is because you feel pressed to kill off Blackheart because he can dump all his meter off to a stronger character. Without a threat of an alpha counter to Cable/Sentinel/Cyclops or one of those 3 inheriting 5 meters, he doesn't scare anyone as a point character anymore.
ID, if you'd like to try the match at SHGL, I'm game. Cyclops or Doom v. Blackheart, same assist (or if you want Cyclops v. Cyclops, I'll pick Wolverine-B). =D

On Magneto. There are only a few Magnetos that actually stand out. And yeah that's great. But what I mean by randomness is that you lose the same percentage to basic Magnetos who know how to do training mode as you do to the 2nd cut of Magnetos. Same thing as Cable.

Stomp-o-meter is also known as unfly mode. There is an article about it posted somewhere on the site. Excellent work done on that by ShadyK and Genghis.

ShadyK: If you want to pick Cammy with Magneto instead of Psylocke, that's fine, but you're looking too much at Magneto as a solo operator. The main reason I don't attack Magneto/Psylocke is Psylocke. If you don't have Psylocke (like when you have Doom or something), I turn the fake rushdown forward instead of backwards. Magneto doesn't have great air defense that sets anything up, but if you get hit by Psylocke, then the game's over. If I get hit by Cammy, that's only 20-25% damage at the most. That's why I always only attack you after you've called a helper out or when I'm trying to bait the helper. Also with Cammy, all my Doom drop tricks will actually work instead of just being used as a way to force you to call your helper out.
So by all means pick Cammy against me. I'm tired of losing to your ass.

Doom S.fierce is pretty easy to use. Most of the time people play wait-and-see against Doom, knowing that he'd rather wait for you to do something and then react to it. So when they get slightly mid-range away, dash in s.fierce and then fly (if you're in stomp-o-meter), if not, then you can cancel it or just leave it out as a helper setup. The main point of the move is to get people up and start moving. For some reason, blocking a few ground photons and a few Sentinels is enough to get people to start moving. And from that point Doom can react to them instead of being reacted to, and he'll win WAY more often.

BarrelO: Partially responded to earlier, I'll let Shady say what he wants about the other stuff. As for Ken v. Cammy, I'll concede to Justin for now, but I still personally think Ken is a lot better. If I ever played him in the finals, you know I was going to match him X/X/Ken even if that meant the first match was Magneto/Cable/Cammy v. Magneto/Cable/Ken.
And inoften has proper usages as well. I just re-edited 75,000 words over the last few days before a submission. Yep, just me, Kate Turabian and the Cure...and http://www.puce.com/ (I bet all of you had more fun this weekend than I did). So there ARE proper usages and I'm pretty sure that one was. But...I am an editor's worst nightmare so I could be wrong.

Cyclops counters runaway characters because unless they can alpha counter to Cable, Cyclops builds more meter AND can do more with it. Like, running Storm can only do 5-10% with one meter of super. Running Cyclops can double her output (assuming both have Spiral or Doom, but Cyclops can do more per meter if he has no chip helper and Storm has Doom). The fact that Cyclops can out-build and out-chip any runners means that the runner will either lose or will have to change strategies. The only way a runaway player can even hope to do well on Cyclops is if they have the threat of alpha countering to Cable (a la Blackheart). So Cyclops is forced to use the air to chip with. But against true runners, that isn't a problem, since they'll position themselves in the air for you anyways. All you need to do is freeze them high with Commando/Blackheart/Ken and then shoot while they're blocking in the air. Perfectly safe.
And Cyclops counters Sentinel the same way that Cable does. SOB/MOB mean that the majority of drone patterns stop, and his air moves (hammer fist, SFR) all will beat Sentinel moves cleanly air-to-air allowing him to get the drop on Sentinel and rush him while calling helpers or whatever. The reason that summers family are the main Sentinel counters is that they can deal with him flying and they can deal with him blocking too. No other characters can really do that.

Storm low fierce stuff.
OK, I don't think this is really clear. I wanted to make this a full article or whatever, but I thought it was too blah and common sense. I'll do a full explanation though.
Any connected physical (no Cyclops low fierce, etc) move can be SJ cancelled if you want to. It is MUCH easier to SJ cancel launchers however, because you only have to tap in an up direction to SJ cancel them. Now, something that most people don't know is that the 1st frame of an SJ cancel is on the ground and you are free to do whatever. So like, you could be like the computer on MSF and you can cancel a connected launcher into s.jab. I'm sure that people will find all sorts of creative infinites with this. But this is practical too, because you can use that frame to block.
Like, we'll use Storm for this example. Cable calls Cyclops and sits. I do low fierce and he AHVBs while her hand is still out shortly after it makes contact with Cyclops. I SJ cancel the low fierce and block the super. It's a great way to fake out Cable players. In past SHGL tournaments, you can hear friends of my opponents already start cheering when the super flashes and hear a loud collection of "WTF!!!" when Storm or Magneto blocks whatever is coming. But that's basic stuff. What about if the Cable player is tired of being baited and won't do anything?
Here's where it gets more advanced. You can SJ cancel the low fierce into walking/dashing on the ground. I personally try to start with walking instead of dashing because I might get a low air dash (which can't be cancelled out of, and then I really WILL eat AHVB) and then move to dashing once I realize I'm safe.
So like, let's look at it on an overall picture. The helper is out so I low fierce it. If Cable does...
--AHVB, then I block it.
--viper beam, then I can SJ cancel into SJ and triangle jump down to hit him and combo him.
--dashin, then I can SJ cancel into SJ, attack the helper with fierce, rh xx dash, fierce, rh (doesn't combo so no scaling), and come down on Cable with a crossup (and sometimes a double crossup because of how the game treats Storm's fierce).
You get the idea. ANYONE can do it, but the reason that Storm low fierce is special is because...
--it's a launcher. This means that all I have to do to SJ cancel is up-back instead of d, up-back. I also can delay SJ cancel very late on this giving me even more options.
--it hits right when you hit the button. Duc and I did some testing with it and I NEVER got hit when I was going to low fierce the helper. Even milliseconds after I hit the button, Storm makes contact with the helper (and thus, I can SJ cancel).

OK, hope that helps people. Later...

--Jay Snyder
Le Viscant

Posted by Marek21 on August 27th, 2001 07:27 PM:

helps alot =)

hey, when are you gonna be at SHGL next?
do u even play MvC2 now that it's on the smaller cabinets? cuz i saw you last friday and u stayed at the CvS2 and T4 and never once came over to MvC2...mayb cuz we are all inferior...:*(
hah...anyways...just wondering when u'll be down there again so i can mayb play against u.
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Posted by G&D on August 27th, 2001 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blackheart2097
i never take the so called "pro's" words as always being right i disagree with alot of pro's. cyclops is top tier. he can compete with alot of people in mvsc2. magneto can only do so much. since all u guys suck magneto's dick so much alomst everyone knows how to beat him. look shadyk's magneto got raped, i heard justin's magneto got raped by sprial, at ecc sanford magento got fucked up by Ricky come on magneto isn't just what he use to be. i would but strider and magneto at a lower rank. put cyclops and blackheart higher. cyclops can do alot of chip when was the last time u did chip with magnus?? cyclops has a great assist, looks not get into magneto's assist.... cyclops is more versitille then magneto magneto is all about air combo that is y i would put magneto at a lower rank is to predictable. blackheart is predictable at times but he still can beat magnus. i just think that some of u really need to get off of magnetos's dick already. to many people use him so he isn't that hard to beat. nuff said

WTF are u talkin about. Justins magneto RAPED spiral at ECC not the other way around. magneto has unimaginable quickness and combos cyclops is more versitille then mag??? doubt it, he has an infinite nobody in the US uses, but thats about the only thing we dont do with him, with magneto he has combos and rush's the mind cant even comprehend

magneto is not all about air combos. he can play a damn good mind game on the ground,also he has the best rushdown in the game.
magneto is probly on of the most unpredictable character in the game unlike BH

too many people use him so hes isnt hard to beat?? too many people use cable.... too many people use blackheart... too many peole use doom... just because people use them dosent mean the char gets easier to beat.

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Posted by StiltMan on August 27th, 2001 08:20 PM:

I disagree with a couple of the points Viscant makes here.

- He postulates that if BH does the jb. fierce on Magneto, he dies. I disagree. When I'm playing BH/Sentinel/Cammy, I'm usually bringing the rocket punch with Sentinel these days. I have a choice of throwing Sentinel or Cammy out, either one of which will very safely bounce Mags straight back into the demons, possibly setting up an inferno/HOD as well. If he's bringing an AAA that might make Sentinel risky, I'll use Cammy more heavily. Maybe I'm getting Alzheimer's, but I count exactly zero AAAs that will both win a head-on collision with Cammy under those circumstances and set up anything particularly nasty on Mags' behalf. Whatever the case, these options force Mags to go to the air instead of trying to do much on the ground, which puts BH in the drivers' seat. If BH brings Doom-B, it's much the same, with a great deal more duration on the coverage, which gives BH a very solid shot at just repeating the same thing... jb. fierce and Doom, wait to see if Magnus tries to go over, repeat.

- I still think he's overrating Strider. Sure, if he doesn't make any mistakes at all, he's hard to beat. But last I checked, Deep Blue isn't permitted to enter tournaments. We only let humans in. Humans are going to make mistakes. Strider has no single team that is so perfect a compliment for him that he can't be forced to work hard for it... and when you've got to work hard for it, you're going to get frustrated, you're going to blow moves, you're going to leave openings trying too hard to make things happen. And, as we all know, when you leave openings and blow moves, it's going to hurt, bad. That's an enormous amount of weight for a character to have to carry on their shoulders. And most humans are simply not able to carry that weight.

e.g. I've played against two different Strider/Doom/Commando players, one each in the last two Seattle tournaments. The first one has placed in the top 7 or 9, the other sent Jackson to the losers' bracket. In both matches, I took my basic BH/Sentinel/Cammy. Yeah, it's my normal team, and I'm familiar with it, but this team sets the bar very, very high in order for Strider to win. BH/Cammy can be very frustrating for Strider to get in on... Strider can't just drop Doom and not worry about it any more like he can with Team Watts, if BH gets a brief bit of momentum he can chip fairly well also -- a blocked Sentinel-A/inferno/HOD doesn't chip quite as well for one meter as Strider will, but it isn't far back. In addition, if BH conserves two meters, Strider can't afford to take a single hit, or he dies. This is another reason I use Sentinel-A: it sets up the HOD close enough that I can DHC to plasma storm without worrying about guessing the timing, unlike HSF, so if Strider takes a hit, that DHC will probably kill him. And if Strider fails to kill BH, and doesn't win that opening matchup badly enough that he can still tackle the rest of the team, Sentinel with those two helpers behind him is going to eat Doom/Commando for lunch.

The real-world result in Seattle? I swept both players.

This isn't to say that Strider sucks... he doesn't. There are a lot of teams that he can chew up badly if he doesn't screw up. My example isn't to say that my team is full of gods or that I'm the greatest player on the west coast or anything... my example is to say that Strider players are human, and you can build teams that put so much pressure on Strider to do it by himself that it simply won't get done that often. My team is such an example: most humans aren't going to win that matchup, because Strider has to do so much in order to avoid a disastrous matchup once he's gone that he probably won't be up to it unless the Strider player is a lot better than his opponent is.

And, to be honest, Viscant, I think this is where you're missing the boat: you're rating Strider highly, primarily on what Alex used to do with him. Yet in the very same post, you're discounting Cammy because supposedly only Justin does anything with her that's good. Read: you love Strider because one of the best two or three players in the country makes him look wonderful, and you're discounting Cammy because one of the best two or three players in the country makes her look wonderful. Logical? No. Little short of amazing, in fact... particularly when, at B5, two of the top four finishers in the tournament used Cammy as their primary assist, zero of the top 64 finishers in the tournament used Strider as their primary character... but Cammy sucks and Strider is god. Uh huh. Yeah. Right. Let's put that argument to the panel of judges for scoring... panel?

Thank you.

I don't think I necessarily agree entirely with the Doom v. Blackheart argument, either... this isn't a huge mismatch either way, IMO. It's mainly a matter of tempo. If BH gets going with either Doom-B, Cyclops-B, or Commando-B behind him, Doom's going to have a lot of trouble getting anything going without an AAA along. Conversely, if Doom has a BH of his own and establishes distance, BH's got a holy terror of a time getting a whole lot done, either. A Doom/BH/Commando mirror match could go either way if one guy brings BH on point and the other brings Doom, although I think that it probably goes about 6-4 in Doom's favor, maybe 6 and a half. Not a blowout, but BH could probably stand to bring a friend that would do it better.

If Doom brings a friend to knock out most of BH's common assists, though (e.g. Storm goes through Commando, Doom-B, or whatever), then that could skew it more Doom's way. This may be where you're getting your judgment from.

I'm agreed on most of the rest of it, though.

quote:
Originally posted by G&D
WTF are u talkin about. Justins magneto RAPED spiral at ECC not the other way around.

That's ECC, with a weaker Spiral against him. When he was up against Duc's Spiral at B5, he got torn a new one. shadyk's Magneto got torn up by Thong Nguyen's Cable/Doom/Cyclops in the pools. The only match where Valle tried using Mags (against Mike D), he got swept by Storm/Cable/Cammy. Rattana's Mags lost to white's Spiral. That's a pretty solid body of evidence there.
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Posted by ID II on August 27th, 2001 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Viscant

ID, if you'd like to try the match at SHGL, I'm game. Cyclops or Doom v. Blackheart, same assist (or if you want Cyclops v. Cyclops, I'll pick Wolverine-B). =D

I'm down for my 3-day BH vs your cyclops, if i can peel myself away from CvS2.
either way, its a win win situation for me, cause if you win, its not cyclops being better then BH, its you being better then me.

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Posted by HHZ on August 27th, 2001 08:51 PM:

i have cyclops in my cable/juggy team, so im wondering what can i do with cyclops... he doesnt seem to be very good to me, but im trying to learn so i dont have to a very assist-dependent player. thanks.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 27th, 2001 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Viscant
BarrelO: Partially responded to earlier, I'll let Shady say what he wants about the other stuff. As for Ken v. Cammy, I'll concede to Justin for now, but I still personally think Ken is a lot better. If I ever played him in the finals, you know I was going to match him X/X/Ken even if that meant the first match was Magneto/Cable/Cammy v. Magneto/Cable/Ken.
And inoften has proper usages as well. I just re-edited 75,000 words over the last few days before a submission. Yep, just me, Kate Turabian and the Cure...and http://www.puce.com/ (I bet all of you had more fun this weekend than I did). So there ARE proper usages and I'm pretty sure that one was. But...I am an editor's worst nightmare so I could be wrong.

Well, when I play Blackheart, it's always on a team of Blackheart/Sentinel/Commando or Blackheart/Cable/Commando unless I'm experimenting with something else, so I concede that it's possible that I've overestimated his viability as a point character. But I still have trouble seeing how Magneto matches up against him (note that when I talk about Blackheart, he's always backed up by Commando assist). I'd also like to say a few things about Doom and Cyclops. With Doom, you just assume that he's established the distance necessary to do jump back fierce. That's hardly a given. If Blackheart stays on Doom from the beginning of the match, he's going to have a real problem getting breathing room. And in your Cyclops example, you have Cyclops and another common AAA on the same team. To say that you don't see that too often is an understatment; in fact, I can't think of a single tournament result that featured someone using a team of Cyclops/XXX/other common AAA (if you know of such a result, please enlighten me). Yes, Cyclops can do well against Blackheart if he has Commando or Ken AAA, but he almost never does, so I'm pretty sure Blackheart will beat him in most real world situations.

One more thing about Cammy: You say she's a Justin only character. Couldn't you say the same about Commando? That he's a Valle only character? I mean, how many other people can actually use him effectively on point?

As for "inoften:" Dictionary.com says it's that it's not a word. I'll check my big-ass dictionary when I get back to my room.
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Posted by Cletus Kasady on August 27th, 2001 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by G&D
WTF are u talkin about. Justins magneto RAPED spiral at ECC not the other way around.

Justins Magneto also got wasted by Ducs Spiral at B5.

quote:
magneto is not all about air combos. he can play a damn good mind game on the ground,also he has the best rushdown in the game. magneto is probly on of the most unpredictable character in the game unlike BH

Explain to me what sort of "mind game" Magneto has from afar. It's been said in the original that "once Magneto gets into melee range, expect to take damage", so there's little debate about that. However, he's little to no threat from full screen.

Magneto is solely about rushdown, then landing a hit so you get stuck guessing which way to block, whether or not to tech hit, waiting for the right moment to mash, etc. By the time you guess right, you're usually dead.
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Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 27th, 2001 08:55 PM:

let me tell you how to beat blackheart with magneto. if blackheart jumps back and fierces, just tiger knee EM disruptor. that's the oldest trick in the book. After doing that 2-3 times you can rush down. because if you air dash straight you'll dash past commando and slow blackheart doesn't have any normals that will protect him nor can he move agianst a pressuring magneto. if of course you can come up with a counter stratgy then let me know. hell I don't even play magneto but I sure as hell wont lose to that!

Chaotic Blue
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Posted by BarrelO on August 27th, 2001 09:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
let me tell you how to beat blackheart with magneto. if blackheart jumps back and fierces, just tiger knee EM disruptor. that's the oldest trick in the book. After doing that 2-3 times you can rush down. because if you air dash straight you'll dash past commando and slow blackheart doesn't have any normals that will protect him nor can he move agianst a pressuring magneto. if of course you can come up with a counter stratgy then let me know. hell I don't even play magneto but I sure as hell wont lose to that!

Chaotic Blue

What the hell, I'll bite. EM Disruptors may work a few times, but if you suspect he's going to do that, you can just jump back and do nothing a few times to keep him on his toes. And the only way you'll dash past Commando by air dashing straight is if you're extremely close. Otherwise, you're more likely to dash into Commando (and a single connected Corridor will more than make up for a few EMDs, to say nothing of if an Inferno/HOD is connected afterwards). If you're air dashing straight that close, you're going to go right over Blackheart's head, and he'll be free to jump away, and you're back at square one. And even if you do get in, Blackheart has plenty of normals that he can use effectively in melee range. His jumping and crouching shorts come out fast and have extremely high priority.
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Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 27th, 2001 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

What the hell, I'll bite. EM Disruptors may work a few times, but if you suspect he's going to do that, you can just jump back and do nothing a few times to keep him on his toes. And the only way you'll dash past Commando by air dashing straight is if you're extremely close. Otherwise, you're more likely to dash into Commando (and a single connected Corridor will more than make up for a few EMDs, to say nothing of if an Inferno/HOD is connected afterwards). If you're air dashing straight that close, you're going to go right over Blackheart's head, and he'll be free to jump away, and you're back at square one. And even if you do get in, Blackheart has plenty of normals that he can use effectively in melee range. His jumping and crouching shorts come out fast and have extremely high priority.

its more of a mind game. I'm not going to keep EM disruptoring you to kill you, but to let you know that your taking damage and I'm not forcing you to come at me, thus puling me into melee range. And Viscant is right, if you doing normal jump fierce, i'm pretty sure (haven't seen it done) that magneto can dash in and low roundhouse you while your in the air, thus making it an otg, and your going to eat damage. the only good strat with blackheart that gives me ANY trouble is that sj, demons land on you with short crouching short short. This was before of course valle jus ttold me to launch that shit. and hey, it works!

Chaotic Blue

p.s. Viscant. I think, (yes seriously) that tron can stand up to sentinel for the simple fact that her drill beats hit jumping fierce. I'll play you, fight to the death, Tron vrs. Sent. oh, hope to see you at the next james gaymes tournament.

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Posted by MarkyMark on August 27th, 2001 09:35 PM:

Like Stilts, I'm also confused by Strider's high ranking. I think the fact that all but two people avoided using Strider entirely at B5 should say someting... I kept asking people, "Anyone using Strider?" No one said "yes." Theoretically, Strider has a good chance at taking out a lot of people without having to worry about combos, or even the opponent moving. But theoretically doesn't equate realistically. No one used Strider at B5 (practically). The last time I saw him in a top ten tournament results list was when Valle used him about six months ago (...and I think ShadyK used some odd-ball Strider team once in a tournament, and it got mentioned).

Now compare that to the rest of the characters you put below Strider. Magneto is more often used, and more often won with. Doom wins more than Strider does. So does Blackheart.

I touched on this a while ago in a completely different thread, but if you want to get purely theoretical about things, Sentinel and Strider tear this game up. Even Magneto to a point does, because like you mentioned, no one can block all of his stuff, and everything that people can throw in his way is avoidable.

Blah, blah.

Perhaps that's what these tier rankings are all about - what's theoretically possible, who can win, and who should have problems with stuff.

Realistically, Strider doesn't win, Sentinel still dominates, so does Storm and Spiral... And Cable's way up there, too.

I don't like that Strider's not high (he's still my favorite), but I don't think it can be argued any other way until someone starts winning tournaments with him again.
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Posted by G&D on August 27th, 2001 09:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cletus Kasady

Justins Magneto also got wasted by Ducs Spiral at B5.

.

...I was talkin about the justin vs ricky matches where ricky got his ass kicked I never brung up Duc...
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Posted by Raz0r on August 27th, 2001 11:48 PM:

I kinda agree with BarrelO. I still think that Blackheart is effective to keeping Magneto away. Only if you make the mistake of pressing RH instead of feirce would you get punished by Magneto. And I also think that Strider is still effective. But some of us always come across the problem of wall climb instead of teleport or Ragnarok instead of Ouroboros. That's why some don't gamble with him in tournaments. As Viscant said, it all depends on the player.

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Posted by Shanghai Kid on August 27th, 2001 11:58 PM:

Viscant: What do you think of Sakura??
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Posted by FluffyXXL on August 28th, 2001 12:19 AM:

Thank you for posting Viscant. There has been a lack of any kind of thread like this and it seems to me that you're the only one who can start a thread this massive. At least you always have been in the past. Anyway, on to the specifics.

BH - I don't like the fact that you haven't included him in your top tier, but I understand why and don't really feel the need to argue it. Some other things however, I do want to comment on. Namely, I don't think the BH vs Magneto match is as bad as it's being made out to be. If BH as any kind of assist that will get in Magneto's way, although it's mostly either Cyclops or Commando, he has a lot better chance than he would without one. C.Roundhouse is a very good tactic to use, but you're also assuming BH doesn't air dash at all. He has options as to how to avoid Mags if he tries that tactic. He can air dash backward and then Fierce, which means if Magneto want to get near him, he will more than likey run into an AAA, or at least be temporarily halted, seeing as how he can't both hit the AAA and still get close to BH. He just air dash back and wait. He can J.Fierce and cancel it with an air dash over Magneto as he dashes in with the C.Roundhouse. This is a bit less effective unless it's set up, but if you can bait Magneto into really trying for that C.Roundhouse, you get over him without trouble. Bottom line is that BH only really looses to Magneto due to the randomness factor that gives Magneto the majority of his victories. I don't see BH having a problem running away from him with an AAA and building meter, which is his primary function on most of his teams. If you're trying to play a different BH combination like BH/Tron or something, you will encounter problems against Magneto if you can't keep him away.

Justin's Mags/Cammy - I think you're view of Cammy is a bit distorted. As has been mentioned already, it doesn't make sense to rate a character (high or low) based soley on one player selectively. However, I still think people need to hop off of Justin's nuts a bit and figure out why exactly Cammy is so good. I've been playing it and have my own ideas as to why he wins with Mags/Cable/Cammy instead of using Mags/Cable/Psylocke. However, the majority of people that I've seen that have a high opinion of Cammy don't really understand exactly why she's good. In my view, the main reason that he's winning with this team isn't because Mags/Cammy is so much better than Mags/Psylocke. It's because Cable/Cammy gives a lot more problems to the common Cable counters than Cable/Psylocke does.

For those out there than think Justin's Magneto is holy and godly, all I have to say is 'oh PUH-LEEZE!' I remember at ECC, there was only one (or maybe two) matches where Justin's Magneto tore into Ricky's Spiral and ripped her a new one. He won those matches because his Cable is undoubtably the best in the country and he uses his Cammy assist more efficiently than most Cables can use Commando, not because of his Magneto. If this offends any other great Cable players out there or offends Justin cuz I don't think he has the greatest Magneto on the planet, I'm sorry. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. But Justin just has the instinct to set up situations to AHVB better than any other Cable I've ever see, and I've seen them all. The vids from MWC were some more of that. I remember two matches where Justin tore into Valle's Blackheart, although in the first he didn't get the job done. I remember watching a lot of those matches and wondering to myself how exactly did Valle loose? Then, i saw why Justin won. He won because his Cable came in, he unloaded 4-5 levels, and killed characters in the process. Magneto came in, built some levels, did some damage, and then Cable came in and cleaned up the house. I didn't see the B5 finals, but I assume it was something similar to that. And Duc didn't exactly just bend over for Justin either. No one has, and Justin has still been winning. He even won on WC turf, and for that, he deserves 'mad' respect.

Cyclops - This is more of a personal question to you Viscant, but I am one of the lazy americans that hasn't taken enough time to learn Cyclops' infinite on every character. The ones that I can't seem to figure out are Sentinel and Blackheart. I can work it on Cable, Storm, Doom, and anyone that size, but when it comes to the heavy guys, I don't know. Do you happen to know by chance? Also I think I remember you mentioning something about White doing something else with Cyclops. Care to elaborate?

Other than that, I pretty much agree with a lot of what you wrote. I personally think that Tron deserves to be in the bottom of the 2nd tier, but I also understand that there hasn't been as big a Tron following on WC as there has been on EC, and WC doesn't have a good Tron example. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to ever be fit to be that example either. I'm working on it though.
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Posted by LordLocke on August 28th, 2001 12:48 AM:

I'm glad Vis isn't on the Magneto bandwagon: Justin Wong's playing him a lot better then what Magneto really is. I know I've used this analogy before, but Magneto's like a train: as long as you play on the tracks, it'll railroad you. But if you don't play by it's rules and stay off the tracks, it'll be rather ineffective. Just because he does a lot of damage means jack if he can't get a hit in. If Magneto can't get in, he's just a lame duck and won't add much to the combat.

Maybe it's just who I play as (Venom/Doom don't give Magneto a whole lot to work with, since Mags has a hell of a time out-pritorizing fast Venom Fangs backed with lots of rocks) but Magneto isn't nearly as scary to me as Cable or Sentinal, despite his "dreaded" combo ability, simply because it can take the entire match for Magneto to force that opening, and he's got nothing but his rushdown to use to do it with. If you can shut him down on point (I'll admit, it's easier said then done, but it CAN be done) he's worthless. He can't do anything but rush on point, and he's a waste in the back. I will admit to what Vis said about Magneto being able to let the lesser player steal wins if he gets lucky, tho. Mags is the opposite of Strider in that respect.

Just curious, any character you think we need to keep the ol' eyeball on, Vis? I keep hearing a lot about Anakaris, Sakura, and Son Son now that B5 is over, not to mention the ever-lingering whisper of the Japaneese God-'sim that never seems to show when the Americans are nearby, but is all the hype really true, or are they the next Iron Man and Omega Red, in your opinion? I want Sakura to rock, as she's still part of my rotating roster, and hearing Anakaris becoming a legitimate threat would give me another moment of happiness as well.

Also, ego talking here, any thoughts on Venom?

Oh, shut up humility. Jus' curious on that one, I've been using pressure traps with the big man involving semi-lockdown and chip (Mostly Venom with Doom, using Fangs and Normals to lock them into place to chew on the brunt of the Doom assist.) Am I barking up the wrong tree with Venom there, or have I (Finally) begun to break Venom's basket of goodies?
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Posted by margalis on August 28th, 2001 01:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
let me tell you how to beat blackheart with magneto. if blackheart jumps back and fierces, just tiger knee EM disruptor. that's the oldest trick in the book. After doing that 2-3 times you can rush down. because if you air dash straight you'll dash past commando and slow blackheart doesn't have any normals that will protect him nor can he move agianst a pressuring magneto. if of course you can come up with a counter stratgy then let me know. hell I don't even play magneto but I sure as hell wont lose to that!

Chaotic Blue

Whatever man. I'm going to pull a Viscant here and say that from way people play Blackheart it is clear that they don't know what they are doing. Why are you throwing fierce demons high enough for them to see them and then EM disruptor, or to wave dash under? Wave dash under with Magneto, who stands almost straight up when he dashes?

When you play BH against characters with beam supers, other safe invincible supers or very low dashes (like Shuma) you do the fierce as low to the ground as possible. This has been true since day 1, and I have a lengthy explanation of it in my BH faq. If someone is dashing under your fierce demons you did them too high.

Translation: If someone is dashing under your fierce demons you need to learn how to play BH.

If the fierce demons are going to miss, you always want them to miss short, not long. And if the opponent dashes at you as soon as you jump back call a helper or just throw out a short. You should only throw the demons when you are low to the ground and your opponent has some distance, or you have a helper. End of story. At least in MSH your excuse was that the demons came out really slow and he floated quite a bit when he threw them. But in MVC2 the demons come out faster than in MSH or MvSF.

Note that I'm not saying this changes his ranking dramatically. Upper 2nd tier is about right. But there is no way wave dashing under fierce demons is any sort of real "strategy" at all. The problem is that people have fallen in love with crap strategies (first super-jump roundhouse, then poorly-timed fierce demons) and aren't adjusting. (Perhaps because many people haven't seen a lot of BH in other games, and was not a popular character or playing style)

If you dash at me, you will either get hit by a short, get hit by a helper, run into the demons, or I will land and block before you can hit me. (In which case the demons will probably hit you from behind) If none of those things are true I threw the demons out at the wrong time, end of story.

In MSHvsSF, where BH took the most damage in the game, this was BH 101 type stuff. You do not get supered out of fierce demons and you do not let people dash under them. The end.

Posted by TS on August 28th, 2001 02:21 AM:

Viscant- was curious why Iron Man was ranked so much higher than War Machine.

Also, you said that Strider only needs Oroburos vs Cable...wouldn't they also help vs Mags? Would be sort of pointless for him to get into "melee range" if they're on.
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Posted by HHZ on August 28th, 2001 02:49 AM:

evn tho iron man only has one super, his versatility has sumthing to it that is dif IMO to war machine, and i mean that in a positive way. i dont see any clear advantage that war machine has over iron man except for the super. iron man is faster, stronger, and has better defense (personally). iron man can do a lot, but war machine is so limited. my avatar looks cool, huh? yyeeeaaah
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Posted by BlackShinobi on August 28th, 2001 03:03 AM:

just finished reading the first page

1. strider doesn't win because almost no one uses him, you would get flamed for eight pages for calling him top tier if you aren't viscant

2. About Capcom making up for blackhearts weaknesses - you can't rank a character with an assist (like Srider/doom = top tier) strider/doom isn't a character its a situation, so what happens when the situation changes

3. The whole blackheart beats Magneto thing started from the Valle Wong vids, and its just like viscant said about justin's cammy. just because Alex's BH beat Justin's Magneto doesn't mean that all BHs beat all Mags
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Posted by Gilliam on August 28th, 2001 03:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HHZ
evn tho iron man only has one super, his versatility has sumthing to it that is dif IMO to war machine, and i mean that in a positive way. i dont see any clear advantage that war machine has over iron man except for the super. iron man is faster, stronger, and has better defense (personally). iron man can do a lot, but war machine is so limited. my avatar looks cool, huh? yyeeeaaah

first off the only thing iron man has on war machine is speed and a proton cannon that doesn't bounce sometimes, so if you try to use war machine like iron man i could see why you would think that iron man is way better. but if you play keepaway i believe that war machine would be better suited for it seeing as his smart bombs are faster and he has that instant recovery projectile (lp version) and when people try to rush you down you would just use an aaa like cyke and infinate that ass when they fuck up.
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Posted by TS on August 28th, 2001 03:07 AM:

I'm gonna go ahead and discredit LordLocke by agreeing with him. I've found that my Ryu/Doom team screws with Magneto a little. I'm not saying it owns him or anything...I'm just saying that Mag players generally have a tougher time vs my Ryu/Doom than with my Doom on point, or basically anyone but my Spiral (though keep in mind that I suck with Storm outside of Storm/Doom, where I'm mediocre). Ryu doesn't really trap Mags, but he keeps a lot of crap in his way...fireballs + air fireballs Doom aaa + the threat of a TK Shinkuu Hadoken (and possible DHC to Ground Photons and/or Hail) if you wanna try Jab EMD & assist + the threat of Doom & Jab DP if you get too close. There's some other stuff, but that's the bulk of it

I was actually hoping I could get to play somebody with Mag at B5, but no dice. I find that Mag players will generally have to SJ up and try to find a big enough hole to fit through, which is harder than it sounds (I think Ryu can do this weird thing where he can cancel his fireballs into more fireballs...can't explain it).

Point is, I agree with you. I'll still lose to a lot of Mags because I suck, but it's not too terribly tough to keep him away from you if you if you have enough cheap crap (I kid...like i wouldn't use some 100% block damage glitch or infinite blockstun trap if Ryu had one).

BTW- anyone catch shadyk's match vs that NW player at B5? I didn't get to see it, but I'm curious about how he was using Cable/Doom.
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Posted by LordLocke on August 28th, 2001 03:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by TS
Viscant- was curious why Iron Man was ranked so much higher than War Machine.

Well, I'm not Vis, but I can handle this one.

1) Speed. This is probably the biggest. It's not TOO evident on foot-speed, but it's blatent just about everywhere else but the Repulsor Blast. Most notable, Iron Man can dial an entire kick chain into his launcher, while WM cannot. Also, the smart bombs and Unibeam come out a lot faster. The Repulsor Blast does too, but it stays out MUCH longer for IM (A blessing as a assist, a curse on point)

2) Proton Cannon. IM's is a beam, WM's is a bunch of little projectiles. IM's is comboable, WM's is not. WM's does more chip, but if you hit with it, it'd best be a grounded opponent or they'll go flying out. IM has no such problems, and honestly, the PC still does an assload of chip, IM or WM style. IM's comes out leagues faster, too. (No "Here's my Sunday's Best...")

3) War Destroyer got massive down-toning from MvC1. It's a bitch to combo, easy to fall out of, and does piddly-shit chip while leaving WM WAAAAAAY open on both ends of it. It might as well not be there unless used in a few DHCs.

4) Infinate. IM's speed makes it easier to set up the infinate, and his Proton Cannon is a far better way to end it then a War Destroyer (WM's Proton Cannon will bounce them and they might take 3 hits from it if lucky)

In WM's favor, the Shoulder Cannon is a million times better then the Unibeam as a assist (And arguably on point) and his Repulsor Blast is fast enough to give WM some guard crush options IM does not, but otherwise IM's the superior character. So much so that WM goes several slots down on the list. Honestly, I was a little suprised to see WM on there at all anymore, with IM slowly-but-surely falling out of favor...
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Posted by BlackShinobi on August 28th, 2001 03:38 AM:

If there are thousands of people playing MVC2 why is it that only 5 of them matter

people are making the entire mags beats spiral argument on Justin v ricky
and the entire counter argument is about justin v Duc
what ever happened to using personal experience as a reference?

C. Blue - as much as I like her Tron has nothing to stop a flying Sentinel.
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Posted by VenomFang on August 28th, 2001 03:57 AM:

To add to LordLocke's reply, DHC to IM Proton Cannon is SICK. SICK. People like Tron and Charlie can throw into a whiffed super DHC Proton Cannon. The speed of IM's Proton Cannon gives a lot of people crazy DHC options.

-vf
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Posted by TS on August 28th, 2001 03:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gilliam

first off the only thing iron man has on war machine is speed and a proton cannon that doesn't bounce sometimes, so if you try to use war machine like iron man i could see why you would think that iron man is way better. but if you play keepaway i believe that war machine would be better suited for it seeing as his smart bombs are faster and he has that instant recovery projectile (lp version) and when people try to rush you down you would just use an aaa like cyke and infinate that ass when they fuck up.

Gilliam- I agree with you, though I won't do what I just did to LordLocke and talk about how my WM/Storm(G) works. And Proton Cannon bouncing opponents isn't random or anything, it has to do with height. For example, someone said that you can't do Storm's Lightning Storm air combo into WM's PC...that's not true at all, you just have to wait longer before the DHC so they don't go bouncing everywhere.

HHZ- War Destroyer is nice for punishing mistakes and for DHCing out... I think the biggest disadvantage WM really has to IM is that IM's PC is an instant super...I'm sure WM's Proton Cannon has pretty decent speed coming in off of a DHC, but IM's will beat HSF/AHVB etc.

Anyway, just for the record: 1. Iron Man has exactly ONE (count em') infinite setup that WM doesn't, as far as I know: the one with the crouching Roundhouse into Jab Unibeam in the corner. Other than that, WM has an equal numner of ways to go into his infinite.
2. As far as damage goes in normals, WM's launcher, crouching Jab and crouching Roundhouse do more damage, and his crouching Fierce has the potential to do so (distance thing). So it's not like there's some huge gap here.

LordLocke- Point taken about speed, but I wouldn't think that it'd be so huge of a factor, since neither one of them is that fast. About the PC- I'm not sure that IM's has any less startup than WM's. Once the super actually starts, you have it going for you that it's instant (which of course makes it faster), but I'd think you'd be able to AHVB or otherwise knock IM out of his PC as easily as you would WM.

About the War Destoryer- it's really pretty easy to combo. I use standing short, crouching Strong, Jab Repulsor Blast XX WD. I remember seeing it take off about a third, though I'm not sure who it was on. It's also nice to DHC out with...for example IM can do crouching Fierce, Smart Bombs xx PC to DHC out with, since odds are the opponent will still be blocking something... Smart Bombs xx War Destroyer works with WM as well, gets him out faster, and you can actually land a Hail Storm (and probably some other supers) if one of the Smart Bombs hits. Nice to have around.

About the infinite- I can't sj cancel WM's crouching Strong (combo into WD/PC should really be irrelevant, since if you're good you'll just go into the infinite anyways), and I don't play IM, so I'll take your word for it that it's harder with WM than IM. However, I really can't see any other practical infinite setups where IM being faster would help a whole lot.

About ending the infinite with WM's Proton Cannon- Yeah, I suppose combing into WD is the best way WM has to end it, assuming you don't want to burn 3 meters and go with a THC (but like I said...I use Storm Gamma with WM). I always wondered if WM could connect a full PC after his infinite...I'm sure he can do it somehow (I still have that old James Chen combo in my head...crouching Jab, crouching Strong, standing Fierce, Shoulder Cannon xx Proton Cannon etc), but since I don't have the game I can't experiment with things like that. Ah well.

I believe that Shoulder Cannon is better than Unibeam on point, but I can't fathom why it'd be better as an assist.
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Posted by master ken on August 28th, 2001 05:52 AM:

Viscant :

There is no doubt that you are a great player, but as I said before, what you have just said about BH is partialy wrong. Do you remember when you were facing justin wong at MWC and he picked team watts, your Doom was destroyed by BH; actualy, he defeated you three times in a row with team Watts, and in each matche, your first character was beaten by just BH.

IMO, BH is a top tier, probably top 5.
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Posted by Taramoor on August 28th, 2001 06:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BlackShinobi
If there are thousands of people playing MVC2 why is it that only 5 of them matter

people are making the entire mags beats spiral argument on Justin v ricky
and the entire counter argument is about justin v Duc
what ever happened to using personal experience as a reference?

C. Blue - as much as I like her Tron has nothing to stop a flying Sentinel.

Tron is hard pressed against a flying Sent, I'll agree, but noone is without options (even Servbot!). (Tiger knee)+hk, qcf+fp, fdp+fp, qcb+PP, can ALL give a flying Sent problems. Her homing beacon is what I would recommend, I've stopped many a flying Sentinel with that.
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Posted by HHZ on August 28th, 2001 08:02 AM:

man i love sentinel... look at me fly!! haha! anyway, im here to say that virtually anything from certain ppl can stop a flying sentinel, but the only problem is the timing. for instance, tron does have that homing beacon thing, but its the timing, and when it needs to be done. like i sed b4... i never have played rilly that good of people besides maybe 3-4 but they were pretty good compared to a lot of cali peeps. i learned that VIRTUALLY anything from certain ppl can stop it, but its just a matter of timing. this is all from what i have seen...
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Posted by BlackShinobi on August 28th, 2001 09:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Taramoor

Tron is hard pressed against a flying Sent, I'll agree, but noone is without options (even Servbot!). (Tiger knee)+hk, qcf+fp, fdp+fp, qcb+PP, can ALL give a flying Sent problems. Her homing beacon is what I would recommend, I've stopped many a flying Sentinel with that.

I don't want to come of as just blindly rejecting this so I'll give reasons.

tiger knee HK - fly upward

qcf+fp - has a delay and is also a big red dotted line - if anyone is dumb enough to fly into a big red dotted line and stay there until it hits then they need serious help

fdp+hp - this one might actually work once, if your lucky, but its just too slow to work consistantly

QCB+PP - I'm 90% sure he can fly over it, but if I'm wrong all if does is force him to land temporarily(close range) at long range he can unfly and super jump over it.

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Posted by Bruton on August 28th, 2001 10:26 AM:

Quite an interesting thread. I just wanted to say a few things...

First off, the same thing about the player vs the character thing ocurred to me as I read it. You can't really say definitively that Cyke and Strider are awesome but Cammy is not because some people can use them well and some can't.

Secondly, you mentioned how "Cyke could clean up but Cammy couldn't" when you had three characters left. The inherent problem with that is that this is the end of a match, and Cammy doesn't have assists. What if Cammy has assists, then? By the time most matches are at this point, the game is usually decided, anyway. Along these lines, it's not just about what each player and team can do, but what stage of the match you're at. Chip damage and time in particular often become more important.

Ranking is difficult because this IS a team game. Magneto is awesome, but if you use him, you are essentially forfeiting an assist. Not so with Cammy. It's a bit like the mantra of Hydra: Strike one down, and two more will rise up to take its place. I think Magneto's randomness factor isn't that he can't play keepaway... it's that if he goes on the sidelines, he's useless. Almost, if not all, of the other top tier characters are fantastic all round. Storm-Hail, Rush, invinc. assist. Sent. Doom. Cable even has decent assists and is good on a team for his CAHVB. Spiral. Etc. Strider and Magneto are both one hit wonders... they do their job extremely well, but they don't do anybody elses'.

To truly rate characters, you'd have to do individual characteristics. E.g. Assist, on point, air dash, air super(e.g. for DHC'ing out), chip damage, speed, size, helper punishment, stamina, damage infliction, super building, etc., etc. They all come up differently. Then you'd have to rate characters based upon their redundancy or not(e.g. little point having Cammy and Ken assist). On top of that, with ranking and deciding on an "ultimate team", you also have to notice that there are counter teams to it. It's like trying to do a tier system for paper/rock/scissors. If Cable beats Iceman and Doom beats Cable, then Doom must be #1, except Iceman beats Doom. Throw in the extreme effect of player skill, and it's a nightmare to rank, and everyone has their own opinion.

It's fair to define tiers loosely though. If Storm does so well across all fields, obviously she's top tier.

Ahhh well.
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Posted by Paxtez on August 28th, 2001 01:08 PM:

I agree for the most part. I would put doom higher, just because doom owns me =).

It sucks to say but BH doesn't have such an easy time with mag as he did before. Mags just got used to bh, my BH used to go like 10/1 with good mags. But after like a month of playing them repeatedly, mag just kept avoiding my tricks faster then I could come up with new ones. Now I'm lucky if my BH goes 1/2 with a good mag.

IMO strider shouldn't be that high. He dies in one combo and some change, and the trap is hard to do. Noone can do it 100%, the best I've seen in real life was like 60% (I'm sure valle and others can do it better of course). Strider is scary, but not as scary and sprial, cable or even mags.

Capcom should be higher, just because he cheats one button push = 1/7 of life gone.

Oh well, good write up.
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Posted by Eric Magnus on August 28th, 2001 03:20 PM:

Justin Wong is not the only person who can play a good Cammy. If you're smart anyone can play her. I'm not a "Justin Biter" ( ) but I'm not gonna sit here and suck up.

Cammy is very fast and if you play her unpredictably (don't just always dash in lk lk ac) you can play her well. In some situations her downward cannon spike in the air works well.
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Posted by Vlestat on August 28th, 2001 05:06 PM:

I respect you Viscant, a lot, but youand all the posters are wrong. The real tpo tires are

1. Roll(she is the most cute character in marv)
2. Megaman(just look at his taunt)
3. Kobun (he beats cable with lot of laugh)
4. Apocalyps (there is a cheat to use him just press in the character select start,start,start,down,up,down,left,left,down,star
t,do a taunt,eat chicken,say i love simpons,downm and right

VLestat

Posted by CapMaster on August 28th, 2001 05:25 PM:

Great post Viscant! Im happy to see all three characters on my main team are still top tier. I knew Doom wasn't "figured out!" And I hope I get to see more Cyclops now..It seems like the number of Cyclops players have dropped fast...BTW how do you do Cyke's infinite?
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Posted by Blackheart2097 on August 28th, 2001 05:28 PM:

i agree with paxtez that strider shouldn't be rated so highly one mistake and strider is fucked there goes half his life. and if they snap back doom and fuck him up than strider is still fucked so the strider doom shit isn't all that i can beat. no strider doom trap has every challenged me i always beat strider. thats y i wanna play clockwork. no strider has every gave me a challenge. i think that doom and blackheart should be rated higher. doom is very versitille. he cna play keep away, chip, trap and even a little rush down. i mean nothing compared to magnus but it's still good. and i don't what all u guys are talking about. my blackheart has been able to beat alot of magneto players. jump back fierce demons whille calling doom or capcom magneto can't do much. magneto isn't really that hard anymore. so blackheart and doom should be rated higher and strider should be put into second tier. strider isn't that good but this is still my opinion. feel free to agree but strider is second tier.
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Posted by Nate X Grey on August 28th, 2001 06:14 PM:

A very interesting post Viscant. Probably the best post I've seen around recently. A little question though. From what I can tell, you use Doom's photons as sort of a thing to make your opponent come to you. But what are you gonna do then? Drop with a lk? You're risking a cross-up and Doom doesn't really have any nice normals that does well coming down from a sj. Hk XX air dash + assist is an option but it leaves you open for awhile. Your opponent can also cross up up from below, sj after you or whatever. I don't really get that part of your strategy Viscant. I'll greatly appreciate it if you could elaborate abit more on it. And Doom's unfly mode. Why Doom? Just to gain the block coming down? Are there any things Doom can abuse in unfly mode?
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Posted by StiltMan on August 28th, 2001 06:54 PM:

Now, don't get too carried away about this, guys... I don't think Strider is the third best character in the game, but he's not second tier, either. If you don't have just the right team against his, you do have to rely on him making a mistake before you're going to win. Not every team in the game is going to be as good at forcing mistakes out of him. For instance, although Cable/Commando is a very powerful combination, there's basically no third character that you can put on that team that will make it something other than vulnerable to a well built Strider team in a patient player's hands. Even if he isn't a god, he is still good enough that unless your team already happens to be good at putting a lot of pressure on Strider to do it all himself, you're probably going to need to change your game plan a bit in order to win. IMO, he's not as invincible as Viscant would have us believe, by any stretch of the imagination, but even I'm not going to say that he isn't one of the best six to ten characters in the game... I'm simply not willing to say he's one of the best three or four.
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Posted by Cletus Kasady on August 28th, 2001 07:17 PM:

WM also has crouching Shoulder Cannon/Beam and faster Smart Bombs. It's because of this that I'd much rather play WM (Also because IMO, trapping is a greater asset of the Iron Men than going for the infinite.
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Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 28th, 2001 07:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Taramoor

Tron is hard pressed against a flying Sent, I'll agree, but noone is without options (even Servbot!). (Tiger knee)+hk, qcf+fp, fdp+fp, qcb+PP, can ALL give a flying Sent problems. Her homing beacon is what I would recommend, I've stopped many a flying Sentinel with that.

i disagree. Tigerknee drill will get you kicked in the head. first. you do her DP firece where servbot comes out and blocks half the screen to sent, then you sj, fierce drill and your land behind sent, since her fierce drill not only moves fast but also moves the screen sentinel can't fly back or he'll run into the slowly desending servbot and ill get a combo, also (unless my opp. predicts that I do this) if sent flies up to meet tron hes going to get drills, so then you land and repeat. and whoever said WC doesn't have a good tron, doesn't know me. Or atleast I think she's good. Shes getting better. I still want to play you Viscant...

Chaotic Blue
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Posted by Strider Trunks on August 29th, 2001 12:32 AM:

wow Viscant!! you've brought back life to my Strider Hiryu after explaning how underrated the only top tier from Capcom is. For a while i've been using Magneto/IronMan/Psylocke just cuz of all the new techniques found for Mag plus the IM infinte But all in all my old school team would be Strider/Doom/Cable. My friends suggested that i should stick to this team since my Doom is pretty good to say the least. My Cable is so-so(meaning I know the basic tricks and all) im trying to figure some good traps and some other tactics which doesnt force me to run away through out most of the match. The first team i mentioned arent that great, just adequate to the above average player but very amazing to the scrubs who surround us while we're playing then leave knowing they cant win. So my Hiryu will be alive and well again knowing some of his tricks and will figure out more to make him stronger.
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Posted by margalis on August 29th, 2001 12:39 AM:

I think we are really overcomplicating things by playing "theory fighter." People were claiming a year ago that Strider had a "perfect" trap...so why isn't Strider #1?

What characters can do *in theory* is not all that important. You can appeal to "untapped potential" but any character has some untapped potential. The only way that really comes into play is when one person or country or area is way ahead of everyone else with a character. But even then, is it the character or the person? Maybe Justin Wong being good with Cammy illustrates her "untapped potential?"

Rankings are not distinct from players. The best we can do is extrapolate from results, with a *bit* of theory thrown in. So just look at who wins. Strider doesn't win, Blackheart does. Blackheart wins in fact, not theory, and he wins for everyone, not just the top single player or two. Perhaps the perfect player could do better with Strider, but real players do better with Blackheart, at all levels of play. The rankings do change depending on what level of play we are talking about, but at tournament level play it's clear that Strider is well below a bunch of other people.

Posted by BarrelO on August 29th, 2001 12:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
its more of a mind game. I'm not going to keep EM disruptoring you to kill you, but to let you know that your taking damage and I'm not forcing you to come at me, thus puling me into melee range. And Viscant is right, if you doing normal jump fierce, i'm pretty sure (haven't seen it done) that magneto can dash in and low roundhouse you while your in the air, thus making it an otg, and your going to eat damage. the only good strat with blackheart that gives me ANY trouble is that sj, demons land on you with short crouching short short. This was before of course valle jus ttold me to launch that shit. and hey, it works!

I'd like to point out that EM Disruptors do ass damage, especially from a distance. If you block a Commando assist and I do an Inferno/HOD, I've earned it all back and then some (to say nothing of if these moves actually hit).

And as I said before, if Magneto is close enough that he can dash under your demons, you shouldn't be throwing them. That's when you call Commando and jump back. The Corridor will push Magneto back, and Commando will obstruct the ground to keep him from dashing in. Now Blackheart is back at a safe distance, and you're back at square one.
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Posted by disgruntled goa on August 29th, 2001 12:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

I'd like to point out that EM Disruptors do ass damage, especially from a distance. If you block a Commando assist and I do an Inferno/HOD, I've earned it all back and then some (to say nothing of if these moves actually hit).

Inferno xx HoD actually doesn't really do much chipping damage unless your opponent is in the corner, it'll do even less chip damage if Magneto blocks the inferno in the air (the inferno will pretty much push Magneto away from the HoD). Personally I'd recommend Inferno xx Judgement Day when your opponent isn't in the corner but then again I'm no expert.

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Posted by Dasrik on August 29th, 2001 01:31 AM:

Okay, here is, IMO the scoop on Blackheart.

A lot has changed for Blacky since he was first abusable. In the old days, making a wall of roundhouse demons was a bitch. It was hard to get past, and if you got caught in the air, expect free damage. Sure, Cable was a problem, but if you kept him pinned down there, he couldn't do anything. Plus, you could always do Inferno XX HOD to chip if he jumped and threw stuff.

Things changed quickly. Cable's AHVB counter to HOD pretty much killed any chance BH had of effectively fighting Cable in the air. If you stayed on the same level as BH (not that hard to do) and had a fast forward-moving move, Blacky can't toss demons freely. The fierce demons became more useful, mostly as a way to stuff rushdown combined with Doom assist.

But it still didn't solve all of Blackheart's problems. Inferno xx HOD did lots of chip, sure, but to avoid that, you just stayed out of the corner, where it will do nil chip.

It's obvious that people are overestimating Blackheart. BH beats Doom? Please. Blackheart has a hard enough time getting around Doom's jumping fierce ALONE. BH beats Cyclops? Are you smoking? When the ground is filled with optic bullets and attacking in the sky means eating SOB on reaction, do you think you're going to be able to do anything effectively? And even on fights in general, there are a lot of variables that weigh into Blackheart's effectiveness. Does he have an assist that lets him combo Inferno XX HOD/Armageddon? If he doesn't, there goes your way to do damage. Do you have the lead? If not, then why are you even bothering to play keepaway when it just reduces the time YOU have to turn the tides?

As for Blackheart beating Magneto, I no longer believe it. Evidence was mounting to convince me otherwise, and getting OCVed by ShadyK was the final nail in the coffin. There's only one thing Magneto has to do to beat BH, and that is get inside the fierce demon range and hit him. You can probably get away with jumpback fierce ONCE per fight at most. From there, all your other options either are keepaway options that don't really keep Magneto away, or rushdown options that put you exactly where you don't want to be, near Magneto. And inferno xx HOD, even JAB inferno, is a free way for BH to eat a lot of damage for free. Magneto beats Blackheart. I don't even think it's something that requires TREMENDOUS amounts of skill, as much as a Magneto player just knowing what moves he needs to fight BH.

Yeah. Viscant's Doom and Shady's Magneto have lost to Valle's Blackheart in the past. So what? We are talking about CHARACTER RANKINGS here, people. The skill of the PEOPLE IN CONTROL don't have anything to do with that. That was Viscant's point when he spoke about Cammy. He wasn't trying to say that no one should use Cammy - he was trying to say that simply because Justin Wong wins with Cammy doesn't make Cammy top tier all of a sudden.

Doom is not the big loser in the top tier after B5. Blackheart is.
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Posted by =Mr. Chibi= on August 29th, 2001 03:39 AM:

I would just like to say good job. I agree that Cammy is best used by Wong and Wong's team a most.
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GGX: Venom or Zato-1

Posted by CapMaster on August 29th, 2001 03:47 AM:

So people say Strider/Doom is pretty much invincible if played perfectly..Being a Strider/Doom player I must agree...But here's a view form me: WOuldnt every character in the game be invincible if played perfectly?
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Posted by =Mr. Chibi= on August 29th, 2001 03:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CapMaster
So people say Strider/Doom is pretty much invincible if played perfectly..Being a Strider/Doom player I must agree...But here's a view form me: WOuldnt every character in the game be invincible if played perfectly?

I've been saying that for the time MvC2 came out.
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Posted by Sweevo on August 29th, 2001 03:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CapMaster
So people say Strider/Doom is pretty much invincible if played perfectly..Being a Strider/Doom player I must agree...But here's a view form me: WOuldnt every character in the game be invincible if played perfectly?

Well, if you were to use a supercomputer with ridiculous processing power -- something like an optical or quantum computer from the future -- and programmed in the most optimum algorithms possible for each character, essentially "perfect play", then... NO... every character would NOT be "invincible".

A faultlessly played Zangief would not be able to defeat a faultlessly played Spiral or any super keepaway chars. Inherent design "weaknesses" (no beam... shitty) can not be compensated for by supreme logic and faultless play.

Okay, this was one hell of a shitty post but hopefully you get my drift.
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Posted by L337Shizumaru on August 29th, 2001 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sweevo

Well, if you were to use a supercomputer with ridiculous processing power -- something like an optical or quantum computer from the future -- and programmed in the most optimum algorithms possible for each character, essentially "perfect play", then... NO... every character would NOT be "invincible".

A faultlessly played Zangief would not be able to defeat a faultlessly played Spiral or any super keepaway chars. Inherent design "weaknesses" (no beam... shitty) can not be compensated for by supreme logic and faultless play.

Okay, this was one hell of a shitty post but hopefully you get my drift.

You could've gone a little deeper about it, but you definitely got your point across. People should realize that some characters just plain suck, even with superb player skills.

Posted by Dilated Hadashi on August 29th, 2001 04:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sweevo

A faultlessly played Zangief would not be able to defeat a faultlessly played Spiral or any super keepaway chars. Inherent design "weaknesses" (no beam... shitty) can not be compensated for by supreme logic and faultless play.

I don't think anyone can effectively fight a run-away 'gief, but that just me...

but I second that, some characters when fighting on an even level, are inherently better then others

CapMaster: the only reason a perfectly played strider/doom is invincable is that the opponent doesn't have the oppurtunity to make any actions at all... they are in block-stun till death

one of the main reasons that weaker characters can win is both lack of familiarity since they don't play them, and the mind-games those weak characters have period:

if I'm playing a match, and I see someone pick Dan/XXX/XXX or 'Gief/XXX/XXX, two things go through my mind:

1 - this guy/girl has no clue
2 - this guy/girl is good

sometimes it's #2, and that fact alone can be more damaging then any 35 hit chain combo

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Posted by ss on August 29th, 2001 05:01 AM:

Thanks for doing the thread, viscant.

about storm's sj cancel, can't cable psychic ahvb me(leke ha calls an assiat and ahvbs right away to kill my d.hp attempt)? Isn''t it too risky?

In a previous thread, white said that cable could cahvb a rushdown character to kill the assist. Can the rushdown character escape from blocking the ahvb and protect the assist?(like magneto does a j.hk calling psy against spiral, spiral does vc to cable psimitar cancelled into ahvb, psy eats the ahvb and mags hasd to block it, can mags escape out of it or he'll have to block it and see psy dying?)

At another thread, I saw some very good strats for "team kdcmarvel" (according to sabretooth and coy, cable/storm/sent). Do you think this team can fight the best ones?

Talking about kdcmarvel, anybody has a link to the thread when he explains cyclops'infinite?

And Viscant, are you taking into consideration VCs potential at your ranking(cable being first, followed by cammy, sent and cyclops in my view)?

And what about assists? Can you talk about it too?

What team do you thin its teh more complete right now? storm/sent/cammy , spiral/cable/sent, doom/storm/sent, cable/storm/sent, storm/cable/cammy, sent/bh/comm, cable/storm/sent or any others? Could you talk a little about the best teams or duos in the thread too ?

thnaks

Posted by ID on August 29th, 2001 05:32 AM:

Strider doom is easy to beat as long as you can build 4 meters before your char. dies and you have cable on your team.
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Posted by ss on August 29th, 2001 06:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Viscant

Storm low fierce stuff.
OK, I don't think this is really clear. I wanted to make this a full article or whatever, but I thought it was too blah and common sense. I'll do a full explanation though.
Any connected physical (no Cyclops low fierce, etc) move can be SJ cancelled if you want to. It is MUCH easier to SJ cancel launchers however, because you only have to tap in an up direction to SJ cancel them. Now, something that most people don't know is that the 1st frame of an SJ cancel is on the ground and you are free to do whatever. So like, you could be like the computer on MSF and you can cancel a connected launcher into s.jab. I'm sure that people will find all sorts of creative infinites with this. But this is practical too, because you can use that frame to block.
Like, we'll use Storm for this example. Cable calls Cyclops and sits. I do low fierce and he AHVBs while her hand is still out shortly after it makes contact with Cyclops. I SJ cancel the low fierce and block the super. It's a great way to fake out Cable players. In past SHGL tournaments, you can hear friends of my opponents already start cheering when the super flashes and hear a loud collection of "WTF!!!" when Storm or Magneto blocks whatever is coming. But that's basic stuff. What about if the Cable player is tired of being baited and won't do anything?
Here's where it gets more advanced. You can SJ cancel the low fierce into walking/dashing on the ground. I personally try to start with walking instead of dashing because I might get a low air dash (which can't be cancelled out of, and then I really WILL eat AHVB) and then move to dashing once I realize I'm safe.
So like, let's look at it on an overall picture. The helper is out so I low fierce it. If Cable does...
--AHVB, then I block it.
--viper beam, then I can SJ cancel into SJ and triangle jump down to hit him and combo him.
--dashin, then I can SJ cancel into SJ, attack the helper with fierce, rh xx dash, fierce, rh (doesn't combo so no scaling), and come down on Cable with a crossup (and sometimes a double crossup because of how the game treats Storm's fierce).
You get the idea. ANYONE can do it, but the reason that Storm low fierce is special is because...
--it's a launcher. This means that all I have to do to SJ cancel is up-back instead of d, up-back. I also can delay SJ cancel very late on this giving me even more options.
--it hits right when you hit the button. Duc and I did some testing with it and I NEVER got hit when I was going to low fierce the helper. Even milliseconds after I hit the button, Storm makes contact with the helper (and thus, I can SJ cancel).

OK, hope that helps people. Later...

--Jay Snyder
Le Viscant

What if cable just sj grenade after calling the assist?

It's really possible to mash out of soem AHVBs?

Does teh AHVB have soem kind of unfly feature or everytime you do it high in the iar you can't block until you land?

Thnaks

Posted by HHZ on August 29th, 2001 07:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ID
Strider doom is easy to beat as long as you can build 4 meters before your char. dies and you have cable on your team.

personally i think that strider/doom can take cable down and trap his ass and make him his bitch. i like cable and all, but im thinkin of strider/doom/magneto because of his trap and his ability to gain bars like nothing. IMO strider is starting to convince me why he dominates magneto. *go to clockw0rk.com and dl the peter vs. clockw0rk match* and see why if strider trap is unknown to you cuz it was to me, but now its clear...
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-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by ID on August 29th, 2001 08:12 AM:

No, No, take me word for it. if you have 4 meters an cable in your team, you're safe.
The peter vs clockw0rk match is WAY old..peter an clock have both gotten way better, and the trap doesent dominate him anymore.

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"i personally love stiff sticks" - Limp_Bizkit666

Posted by HHZ on August 29th, 2001 08:23 AM:

haha it is huh? well anyway i bet the trap does work, but hey, its mite not...
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-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 29th, 2001 05:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

I'd like to point out that EM Disruptors do ass damage, especially from a distance. If you block a Commando assist and I do an Inferno/HOD, I've earned it all back and then some (to say nothing of if these moves actually hit).

And as I said before, if Magneto is close enough that he can dash under your demons, you shouldn't be throwing them. That's when you call Commando and jump back. The Corridor will push Magneto back, and Commando will obstruct the ground to keep him from dashing in. Now Blackheart is back at a safe distance, and you're back at square one.

*holds his head and sighs* ok, if your doing a move that gets stuffed by my jab everytime, will you keep doing it? even though it does no damage. The point of EM disruptor is to get you to come into melee range, because I can't (or its really hard to) dash through those pigs. So I frustrate you and show you that you can't play keep away on me or I'm going to play it on you. Yes I know how to play keepaway magneto agaisnt blackheart. Yes I know how to super super with BH and EM diruptor, then do another when comming down because my opponent wants to get back in the air. This is how I play, if I can't get to YOU, I make YOU come to me. Win win situation with magneto. heh, no one rushes him down. well they do, then they get thrown and take lotsa damage.

Chaotic Blue

ps your in la area right? I'll play you. *chuckle* after re-reading your posts, if you throw commando out and jump back I'm not going to sit there and look at commando taunt me, he's taking at the very least 20% but most likely he'll take 30+ ie (launch fierce xx dash downforward lk lk *guess what I'm in your face agian AND hitting commando* sj, fierce *hits commando he leaves taking 40-50%* xx dash down fierce) and proceed to rush down.

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Posted by BarrelO on August 29th, 2001 08:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
*holds his head and sighs* ok, if your doing a move that gets stuffed by my jab everytime, will you keep doing it? even though it does no damage. The point of EM disruptor is to get you to come into melee range, because I can't (or its really hard to) dash through those pigs. So I frustrate you and show you that you can't play keep away on me or I'm going to play it on you. Yes I know how to play keepaway magneto agaisnt blackheart. Yes I know how to super super with BH and EM diruptor, then do another when comming down because my opponent wants to get back in the air. This is how I play, if I can't get to YOU, I make YOU come to me. Win win situation with magneto. heh, no one rushes him down. well they do, then they get thrown and take lotsa damage.

Oh my God. Blackheart has so many options in this situation, it's not even funny. If he knows you're not going to come at him, that gives him a lot more leeway with super jump roundhouse demons (and you're not going to hit me, since I'll see you jump up with me and block accordingly). He can chip with Sentinel assist (and since Sentinel has super armor, EM Disruptors do nothing). And if you're on the other side of the screen, you're at the optimal range that an Inferno/HOD will do the maximum amount of chipping damage. If Magneto gets in a keepaway war with Blackheart, he's going to lose big time.

quote:
ps your in la area right? I'll play you. *chuckle* after re-reading your posts, if you throw commando out and jump back I'm not going to sit there and look at commando taunt me, he's taking at the very least 20% but most likely he'll take 30+ ie (launch fierce xx dash downforward lk lk *guess what I'm in your face agian AND hitting commando* sj, fierce *hits commando he leaves taking 40-50%* xx dash down fierce) and proceed to rush down.

Sorry, I'm on the other side of the country. But don't worry. If I'm ever in the LA area, I'll make sure and let you know.

By the way, any attack on Commando that doesn't involve DHCs is a bad idea. You're just giving Blackheart the green light to nail you with Inferno XX super of choice (well, maybe not Armageddon). And the life Commando loses is recoverable; the life Magneto loses isn't.

One more thing: Your strategies are 100% theoretical and completely untested. Mine are based on numerous actual matches against Magnetos all over the country, including Duc's. I'm pretty sure I know how this matchup works.
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Where there's smoke, there's fun!

Posted by BarrelO on August 29th, 2001 08:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ID
No, No, take me word for it. if you have 4 meters an cable in your team, you're safe.

Not quite. First of all, you're relying on your first character to build levels for Cable, and he can't build meter while he's in blockstun. And even if Cable does come in with a grip of meter, it's not going to do him much good if Doom's in front of him and Strider's behind him.

quote:
The peter vs clockw0rk match is WAY old..peter an clock have both gotten way better, and the trap doesent dominate him anymore.

It's from the March 31 SHGL tourney. It's not that old. And go back and watch the match again. Tell me, what could Peter, with a team of Cable/Blackheart/Cyclops, feasibly have done to avoid dying the way he did?
__________________
Where there's smoke, there's fun!

Posted by Dasrik on August 29th, 2001 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO
Oh my God. Blackheart has so many options in this situation, it's not even funny. If he knows you're not going to come at him, that gives him a lot more leeway with super jump roundhouse demons (and you're not going to hit me, since I'll see you jump up with me and block accordingly). He can chip with Sentinel assist (and since Sentinel has super armor, EM Disruptors do nothing). And if you're on the other side of the screen, you're at the optimal range that an Inferno/HOD will do the maximum amount of chipping damage. If Magneto gets in a keepaway war with Blackheart, he's going to lose big time.

Here's a small word of advice. Do NOT superjump vs. Magneto unless you have him occupied with something that doesn't let him cross you up when you land. Y-Sentinel isn't a reliable way to do it, because of random glitchiness causing drones not to appear when you SJ.

By the way, I don't like Y-Sentinel assist with BH. Not at all. You can't count on him to occupy the opponent while you superjump, and as far as ground coverage, he's superfluous. The damage soaking can be done equally well with A-Sent, plus the assist does lots more damage and gives you another way to combo Inferno XX HOD/Armageddon.

quote:
By the way, any attack on Commando that doesn't involve DHCs is a bad idea. You're just giving Blackheart the green light to nail you with Inferno XX super of choice (well, maybe not Armageddon). And the life Commando loses is recoverable; the life Magneto loses isn't.

Not really. Launch into tempest is problematic for BH to deal with, especially since most Magnetos cart Storm right behind them. Trying to attack Commando with an air combo, though, is agreeably not smart to do. You'll probably get away with it once. From there, any SMART Blackheart player will just do a jab inferno to nail Magneto in the process.

I still think Magneto beats Blackheart. The tempo of a fight will be turned around much more quickly if Magneto gets in than if Blackheart lands a hit. And since BH requires helpers to even make a dent on Mags, it's even more weighted in Magneto's favor.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 29th, 2001 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dasrik
Here's a small word of advice. Do NOT superjump vs. Magneto unless you have him occupied with something that doesn't let him cross you up when you land. Y-Sentinel isn't a reliable way to do it, because of random glitchiness causing drones not to appear when you SJ.

I only advocated super jump roundhouse against the situation laid out by CB; namely, Magneto is just sitting back and doing EM Disruptors. Against regular Magnetos, I don't super jump unless I need to get out of the corner and I've got him blocking something.

quote:
By the way, I don't like Y-Sentinel assist with BH. Not at all. You can't count on him to occupy the opponent while you superjump, and as far as ground coverage, he's superfluous. The damage soaking can be done equally well with A-Sent, plus the assist does lots more damage and gives you another way to combo Inferno XX HOD/Armageddon.

Again, it was only for the specific situation. In normal situations, I agree.

quote:
Not really. Launch into tempest is problematic for BH to deal with, especially since most Magnetos cart Storm right behind them. Trying to attack Commando with an air combo, though, is agreeably not smart to do. You'll probably get away with it once. From there, any SMART Blackheart player will just do a jab inferno to nail Magneto in the process.

I specifically mentioned DHCs. And I don't think launch to Tempest presents that big a problem. Blackheart can do Judgment Day or super jump roundhouse on reaction (either of which will knock Magneto out of the Tempest), so Magneto has to DHC out immediately if he doesn't want to get hit. And from that point, it's an entirely different matchup. As for air combos, CB specifically leaves himself vulnerable at the part right after "launch fierce." He can't block while he's airdashing, so that's the time to nail him.

quote:
I still think Magneto beats Blackheart. The tempo of a fight will be turned around much more quickly if Magneto gets in than if Blackheart lands a hit. And since BH requires helpers to even make a dent on Mags, it's even more weighted in Magneto's favor.

I'd be more inclined to defer to Viscant if literally every single match I had played with Blackheart against Magneto had not indicated the exact opposite of what he is saying. And I agree, Blackheart needs a good helper to win the matchup. One on one, I say Magneto takes it.
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Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 29th, 2001 09:29 PM:

i still disagree. I usually play storm and if magneto catches my assist out and does the launch fierce, it behaves like a triangle jump since the launch is canceled into the sj and i rarely get away. please underastand I'm not air comboing capcom 40feet over bh's head, I'm combing him right infront of bh. Also I've dashed past so many columns that its sick, matter of a fact bh players don't ever DO columns if their opp. is a character who can dash and is in the air, because its so slow and punishable. you might get away if you sj as soon as you see me block. also, i agree with the other guy who says you shouldn't sj (especially with blackheart) with magneto sitting on the ground. because you sj with demons and if you dash back I'll dash under yor second set, if you dash forward however, I'll have to block and wait for 4 moves before I can counter blackhearts rushdown with my own. *sigh* It would just be better if I just show you, I'll have someone tape a match between myself and a blackheart guy, (hopefully valle and maybe you'll see that valle will win by NOT doing the things you say do) *thats if he wins*

Chaotic Blue

ps. What ID was talking about is if you have xx cable xx and you have more than 1 meter, if strider doom is trapping you and they both are on the same side, if you aplha counter cable in, cable will get hit, but so will the both of you by the scimitar, yourself and doom fly to the other side of the screen while cable is free to do whatever he wants, simply AHVB and you kill doom. dont believe me, PLEASE PLEASE try it before you say it doesn't work. This is a recent development I think came from team SD. <- *much props!*
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Posted by DarthSalamander on August 29th, 2001 10:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue

ps. What ID was talking about is if you have xx cable xx and you have more than 1 meter, if strider doom is trapping you and they both are on the same side, if you aplha counter cable in, cable will get hit, but so will the both of you by the scimitar, yourself and doom fly to the other side of the screen while cable is free to do whatever he wants, simply AHVB and you kill doom. dont believe me, PLEASE PLEASE try it before you say it doesn't work. This is a recent development I think came from team SD. <- *much props!*

Yeah I love that. Found it out by accident, but hey, it works.
__________________
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Posted by BarrelO on August 30th, 2001 12:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
i still disagree. I usually play storm and if magneto catches my assist out and does the launch fierce, it behaves like a triangle jump since the launch is canceled into the sj and i rarely get away. please underastand I'm not air comboing capcom 40feet over bh's head, I'm combing him right infront of bh.

I wasn't talking about hitting you after the launcher. I was talking about hitting you during the airdash. You can't block while you're airdashing unless you cancel the dash into a move. And if you do that, Commando will get away.

quote:
Also I've dashed past so many columns that its sick, matter of a fact bh players don't ever DO columns if their opp. is a character who can dash and is in the air, because its so slow and punishable. you might get away if you sj as soon as you see me block.

Yes, an Inferno is highly unsafe if blocked. However, when cancelled into a Heart of Darkness, it becomes safe unless you have Cable on your team (and if you do, you lose the ability to DHC to hurt Commando unless you have a team of Magneto/Storm/Cable, which is uncommon, to say the least). As long as they block the Inferno, you're fine. And in the situation you outlined, you're going to be air comboing Commando. If I do an Inferno/HOD, the Inferno is going to knock you to the ground. The HOD won't chip much, but Commando is safe and Blackheart is safe afterward.

quote:
also, i agree with the other guy who says you shouldn't sj (especially with blackheart) with magneto sitting on the ground. because you sj with demons and if you dash back I'll dash under yor second set, if you dash forward however, I'll have to block and wait for 4 moves before I can counter blackhearts rushdown with my own.

I already said that I agreed with him. I only proposed super jump roundhouse demons if, as you said, Magneto is just sitting back throwing EM Disruptors. And if I do throw demons and dash back, I'm not going to throw a second set. I'm just going to come down blocking. And if you dash at me as I'm coming down, I'm going to call Commando when I land and start the pattern again.

quote:
*sigh* It would just be better if I just show you, I'll have someone tape a match between myself and a blackheart guy, (hopefully valle and maybe you'll see that valle will win by NOT doing the things you say do) *thats if he wins*

Same here. If I'm ever in Cali, I'll make sure and tape matches of my Blackheart against someone with a really good Magneto, like Shady or Combo Fiend. I'll put the matches up on Clockw0rk.com or something.

quote:
ps. What ID was talking about is if you have xx cable xx and you have more than 1 meter, if strider doom is trapping you and they both are on the same side, if you aplha counter cable in, cable will get hit, but so will the both of you by the scimitar, yourself and doom fly to the other side of the screen while cable is free to do whatever he wants, simply AHVB and you kill doom. dont believe me, PLEASE PLEASE try it before you say it doesn't work. This is a recent development I think came from team SD. <- *much props!*

Fair enough. But keep in mind that I'm not a mind reader. ID said:

"Strider doom is easy to beat as long as you can build 4 meters before your char. dies and you have cable on your team."

How I'm supposed to extrapolate that into:

"if you have xx cable xx and you have more than 1 meter, if strider doom is trapping you and they both are on the same side, if you aplha counter cable in, cable will get hit, but so will the both of you by the scimitar, yourself and doom fly to the other side of the screen while cable is free to do whatever he wants, simply AHVB and you kill doom."

is beyond me.
__________________
Where there's smoke, there's fun!

Posted by Dasrik on August 30th, 2001 01:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
Also I've dashed past so many columns that its sick, matter of a fact bh players don't ever DO columns if their opp. is a character who can dash and is in the air, because its so slow and punishable.

Not necessarily. If BH threw a fierce Inferno, Magneto can airdash past the pillar to get to him, but if Blacky tosses a jab Inferno instead, Magneto gets nailed. There's no way to tell which one BH throws. This in no way means Magneto can't superjump on BH (from the right distance, neither Inferno will work), it just means he has to be more careful when using super jumps to approach from full screen.

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO
I already said that I agreed with him. I only proposed super jump roundhouse demons if, as you said, Magneto is just sitting back throwing EM Disruptors. And if I do throw demons and dash back, I'm not going to throw a second set. I'm just going to come down blocking. And if you dash at me as I'm coming down, I'm going to call Commando when I land and start the pattern again.

If Magneto gets close enough to cross you up, then this isn't an option. With wavedashing, this is really very easy. Blackheart is going to have to guess which way to block, or if he should attack to avoid being thrown, etc.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 30th, 2001 01:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dasrik
If Magneto gets close enough to cross you up, then this isn't an option. With wavedashing, this is really very easy. Blackheart is going to have to guess which way to block, or if he should attack to avoid being thrown, etc.

It's not that hard to determine which way to block. Look at the direction the little "1P" or "2P" arrow is pointing and block that way. If, as Magneto appears on the screen, he's on the other side, switch up accordingly (he's pretty tall, so you should be able to see him in time to react). And if he does throw you, the only way he'll be able to follow it up with anything is if he throws you into the corner, and nobody with half a brain is going to air dash backwards into the corner.
__________________
Where there's smoke, there's fun!

Posted by FluffyXXL on August 30th, 2001 02:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

It's not that hard to determine which way to block. Look at the direction the little "1P" or "2P" arrow is pointing and block that way. If, as Magneto appears on the screen, he's on the other side, switch up accordingly (he's pretty tall, so you should be able to see him in time to react). And if he does throw you, the only way he'll be able to follow it up with anything is if he throws you into the corner, and nobody with half a brain is going to air dash backwards into the corner.

The thing is, Magneto has the choice. He can decide to cross up. He can decide to come down in front. He can decide to just dash under you and hit you low. He can decide to stay in front. He can decide to try to throw. He has the choices. You have to react. And as Viscant says, he does move faster than the human eye can see. You can try to come down from the SJ with something like SJ.Short and see him launch you for your efforts. The bottom line is that you don't get to decide what to do, and thus you've lost control of the match.

The only way you'll be able to block more than 50% is to know the individual Magneto player and know their attack patters. People are creatures of habit and tend to use the same tactics in the same order when they're trying to make you do something. However, when you get into larger tournaments, you can't possibly know every single player and how they think. It's nearly impossible to keep Magneto from doing damage once he gets in. You can get lucky and pushblock him off of you, but that's unreliable at best. In order to beat Magneto, you'll need to keep him off of you.
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Posted by ID on August 30th, 2001 03:19 AM:

Heh..What i stated was true..i didnt mention the specifics cause its too complicated to explain, so i was gonna UL either my b5 match vs Someone from Sac where i did it, or peter's vs clockw0rk from GL tourney, where this happened.

Again..you automatically assume that all this stuff me an cblue are posting , we just think it up?
Ofcourse, hanging around shoryuken, you cant just take anyone's word for anything, but we arent scrubs..all the stuff we're talking about, its from actual tourney experiences.

For the BH thing, if i'm EM disruptoring you, and you SJ, I dont SJ with you, dash, and you'd better pray when you come down from your SJ.

And you keep arguing this point about magneto DASHING under Jumping back fierces..noone even said that.

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Posted by ss on August 30th, 2001 04:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue

ps. What ID was talking about is if you have xx cable xx and you have more than 1 meter, if strider doom is trapping you and they both are on the same side, if you aplha counter cable in, cable will get hit, but so will the both of you by the scimitar, yourself and doom fly to the other side of the screen while cable is free to do whatever he wants, simply AHVB and you kill doom. dont believe me, PLEASE PLEASE try it before you say it doesn't work. This is a recent development I think came from team SD. <- *much props!*

I read about this CAHVB tactics against assists from white and kdcmarvel, but I still have a doubt. usually strider and doom aren't on the same side, so how can cable wins that battle? And won't psimitar just trade hits against doom or ouroboros, making it impossible to cancel it into ahvb? Thanks a lot!

Posted by margalis on August 30th, 2001 04:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ss

I read about this CAHVB tactics against assists from white and kdcmarvel, but I still have a doubt. usually strider and doom aren't on the same side, so how can cable wins that battle? And won't psimitar just trade hits against doom or ouroboros, making it impossible to cancel it into ahvb? Thanks a lot!

If it trades and you can't cancel, you will hit the ground almost immediatly whereas doom and strider will fly off into the air. Doom can't block on the way down. So you don't have to cancel, just AHVB at your leisure.

Strider might be able to do some mid-air maneuvering to help Doom out a bit, like maybe do the horizontal mid-air slash special, but I'm just guessing on that.

Posted by Limp_Bizkit666 on August 30th, 2001 05:54 AM:

hey viscant: nice post....

your rankings are pretty good.. and i agree with most of them...

except strider being ranked so high. =[ i know i get raped by strider/doom, but since no one has perfected it to perfection (sounds gay), there is no need to fear it.

BUT, because it's a "character" ranking, and not "results" ranking, i guess it makes sense..

oh well.

and i think mag beats blackheart... and cyclops beats blackheart..

cyclops is WAY underrated.. you have no idea how many comebacks i mounted with run-away cyclops. =]

now that this thread gave me idea, i'm gonna be using spiral/cyke/sent and chip your ass to death. =]

strider and doom can't be on 2 sides of cable when cable is in the corner. and it's not that hard to get to the corner. =]

if i have 4 bars, i win. strider can't do that much without doom. and when doom dies, u lose. unless u have storm second. =]

heh, good to see some new stuff being found out.. that e.sakura thing that's actually old but recently been brought to public attention, sj cancelling that viscant found out (i think), and this ranking...

oh well..

i really love this game, and it kinda saddens me to see this game soo neglected after b5. i think most of people are just burned out. hopefully, they'll continue to enjoy it..

laterz
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that's what you'll smell like when you piss on your pants.

-----
oh, and do you know cactus?

cactus who?

STFU!

Posted by Clockw0rk on August 30th, 2001 06:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Limp_Bizkit666
strider and doom can't be on 2 sides of cable when cable is in the corner. and it's not that hard to get to the corner. =]

if i have 4 bars, i win. strider can't do that much without doom. and when doom dies, u lose. unless u have storm second. =]

Couldn't Strider just fall from the Pscimitar (sp?) then double jump to knock Cable out of AHVB?

- Clockw0rk

Posted by Limp_Bizkit666 on August 30th, 2001 06:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Clockw0rk

Couldn't Strider just fall from the Pscimitar (sp?) then double jump to knock Cable out of AHVB?

- Clockw0rk

i don't play strider, so i can't say from experience. but i've don eit against striders, and they didn't do that.

i don't know if they CAN'T, or they DON'T..

sorry i can't answer it.. if i have time, i'll try it out and reply a post.. but before that happens, someone will correct me...

but it seems like strider CAN double jump, but might still be too far to do anything??? someone mentioned horizontal-slash thingy, and thatmight work...

oh well...

still, i think because ORBS and PSIMITAR *trades* hits, you don't go up with the psimitar to superjump range, and thus posess the power to double jump. i stay grounded, and watch both of you fly to the other side of screen..

i do ahvb.

that's how it's been.. like i said, it's subject to testing. i'll get back to you...

laterz
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Posted by ID on August 30th, 2001 03:36 PM:

What if you were to counter, SJ, AHVB, to catch strider in blockstun, then land an AHVB again..theoretically, strider shouldnt be able to do anything..
gotta try it out.
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Posted by ShadyK on August 30th, 2001 04:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ID
What if you were to counter, SJ, AHVB, to catch strider in blockstun, then land an AHVB again..theoretically, strider shouldnt be able to do anything..
gotta try it out.

If you're playing like Bh/Cable, you could counter to Cable (you pop doom and strider up and you get hit out of scimitar) and then call BH, then AHVB. Just a thought.

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Posted by FluffyXXL on August 30th, 2001 05:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadyK

If you're playing like Bh/Cable, you could counter to Cable (you pop doom and strider up and you get hit out of scimitar) and then call BH, then AHVB. Just a thought.

IIRC, There are three scenarios that can happen if you counter to Cable AAA while Doom AAA is hitting you. If you counter to Cable and Strider is right next to you, Cable can hit both of them with the Psimitar. This is also timing dependant, because there are some points where you can hit Doom cleanly with Psimitar and some times when it trades. If this happens, Doom falls out of it and leaves the screen before you can AHVB him.

Second, if the Psimitar trades, the Psimitar will hit both Doom and Strider. It will trade with Doom after one hit, which hits Doom really high into the air, and allows you to land very fast. As Clockw0rk said, Strider can double jump out of the Psimitar. However, Cable does have a bit of time before he has to commit to AHVB, so he can SJ up and only hit one beam on Doom, or wait to see if Strider does indeed double jump, and if he doesn't he can AHVB Doom and make Strider block at the same time. Now, if your other character is Cyclops, you can use his AAA to hit Strider even if he double jumps. The bullet will prevent Strider from getting close enough to Cable to prevent him from AHVBing Doom. Strider could also slip out depending on how close he was to you. If he does, a simple AAA like Cyclops can take care of any threat he is to you and you get to AHVB Doom for free on his way down.

Third, if Strider happens to back away after calling Doom, it's usually to do an Ouro or something along those lines. If Strider Ouros, sometimes you can catch him too. This is rare though. If you have a good AAA like Cyclops, anything Strider will do to try to save Doom won't work as long as you AHVB as soon as you land. It is probably possible that Strider can know this is coming and SJ to try to get behind you, but you really have to expect the counter to Cable. If he does, this may not be a decent option, but it's always good for suprises.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 30th, 2001 07:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by FluffyXXL
The thing is, Magneto has the choice. He can decide to cross up. He can decide to come down in front. He can decide to just dash under you and hit you low. He can decide to stay in front. He can decide to try to throw. He has the choices. You have to react. And as Viscant says, he does move faster than the human eye can see. You can try to come down from the SJ with something like SJ.Short and see him launch you for your efforts. The bottom line is that you don't get to decide what to do, and thus you've lost control of the match.

The only way you'll be able to block more than 50% is to know the individual Magneto player and know their attack patters. People are creatures of habit and tend to use the same tactics in the same order when they're trying to make you do something. However, when you get into larger tournaments, you can't possibly know every single player and how they think. It's nearly impossible to keep Magneto from doing damage once he gets in. You can get lucky and pushblock him off of you, but that's unreliable at best. In order to beat Magneto, you'll need to keep him off of you.

True. But it's not as if Blackheart is coming down blind. He knows which side Magneto is on when he leaves the ground, and he can tell when Magneto starts to dash. At the very least, he can make an educated guess, which is more than most characters can do. It's also worth noting that Magneto has to do some guessing as well. If Blackheart comes down blocking when Magneto thinks he's going to come down with short, Blackheart blocks the launcher and resumes his keepaway pattern when he lands. If Magneto goes for a low attack when Blackheart comes down with short, he gets hit by the short, which gets linked into Commando assist, which gets linked into Inferno/HOD. And Magneto just lost over half his life. Granted, the potential risks for Blackheart if he guesses wrong are much higher, and the rewards for Magneto are much greater. But Magneto has to land a clean hit to win the match; Blackheart doesn't.

As for throws, like I said earlier, the only way Magneto will be able to do anything after them is if he throws Blackheart into the corner. And the only time I super jump and air dash against Magneto is if I'm trying to get away from the corner.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 30th, 2001 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ID
Again..you automatically assume that all this stuff me an cblue are posting , we just think it up?
Ofcourse, hanging around shoryuken, you cant just take anyone's word for anything, but we arent scrubs..all the stuff we're talking about, its from actual tourney experiences.

I never said that you guys were scrubs. But CB stated that he wasn't a Magneto player and that basically everything he said was conjecture.

quote:
For the BH thing, if i'm EM disruptoring you, and you SJ, I dont SJ with you, dash, and you'd better pray when you come down from your SJ.

Already dealt with above.

quote:
And you keep arguing this point about magneto DASHING under Jumping back fierces..noone even said that.

But they did talk about Magneto hitting Blackheart after the fierce. There are really only two ways that can happen:

1. Magneto is close enough that the demons go right by him (stupid)

2. Blackheart is throwing them from so high up that Magneto has time to dash in and hit him with a low roundhouse before he lands (also stupid)
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Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 30th, 2001 07:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

I never said that you guys were scrubs. But CB stated that he wasn't a Magneto player and that basically everything he said was conjecture.

Already dealt with above.

But they did talk about Magneto hitting Blackheart after the fierce. There are really only two ways that can happen:

1. Magneto is close enough that the demons go right by him (stupid)

2. Blackheart is throwing them from so high up that Magneto has time to dash in and hit him with a low roundhouse before he lands (also stupid)

Ok, I play magneto casually but don't play him in tournament. I can do pretty well with him and I do know what I'm doing. Out of RUN I'd say I have the 3rd or fourth best magneto (COMBO FIEND, ID or DAVID L. or ME).

Now you misunderstand the sliding priciple. BH's fierce is like dooms, you do it as you NJ (I am talking about normal jumping back and fierce) this is why you can anticipate the demons and time your attack and slide under your opponent. Since the demons dissapear after you call them agian magneto doesn't have to worry about the demons covering the entire area. This of course was still speculation, I've never done it or seen it done. But I have seen people launch or fierce BH while he did it. I jsut prefer to EM Disruptor to get you in my space, like I always say, You dont want me to come to you, then you'll come to me.

Chaotic Blue

hey ID get that one guy to bring a camera to SHGL friday or something.
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Posted by Clockw0rk on August 30th, 2001 07:30 PM:

... nahhh, none of that crap w0rks. I don't think we should try to think of any more anti-Strider strats!

Btw, I don't think any of you aristos have a legitimate reason to quit MvC2 aside from the fact that you're tired of losing. Nothing's changed after B5. Who sez you can't play more than 1 game?

- Clockw0rk

Posted by Eric Magnus on August 30th, 2001 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Clockw0rk
Btw, I don't think any of you aristos have a legitimate reason to quit MvC2 aside from the fact that you're tired of losing. Nothing's changed after B5. Who sez you can't play more than 1 game?

*thumbs up
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Posted by Galactic on August 30th, 2001 07:55 PM:

Hmm... since I don't play Ken a lot, I'll ask:

Does Ken AAA go through Oroboros? If so, couldn't you call Ken AAA and then AHVB that shit on the way up?
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Posted by LordLocke on August 30th, 2001 08:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Galactic
Hmm... since I don't play Ken a lot, I'll ask:

Does Ken AAA go through Oroboros? If so, couldn't you call Ken AAA and then AHVB that shit on the way up?

And thus is why Ken's been consitered the main sticking point and to date the only DEFINATE counter to the Strider/Doom trap... and that's assuming Strider doesn't snapback Ken in first (even then, Point Ken can still Shoryuken his way out of the trap... it's just a LOT harder to do)
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Posted by Clockw0rk on August 30th, 2001 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LordLocke

And thus is why Ken's been consitered the main sticking point and to date the only DEFINATE counter to the Strider/Doom trap... and that's assuming Strider doesn't snapback Ken in first (even then, Point Ken can still Shoryuken his way out of the trap... it's just a LOT harder to do)

... or assuming Strider doesn't just block Ken.

Too many posts today! Phew.

- Clockw0rk

Posted by Eric Magnus on August 30th, 2001 08:38 PM:

Doesn't Cammy's Cannon spike AAA have the same invincibility as Ken's Shoryuken AAA? Has anyone tested her vs. the Strider/Doom trap?
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Posted by FluffyXXL on August 30th, 2001 09:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

True. But it's not as if Blackheart is coming down blind. He knows which side Magneto is on when he leaves the ground, and he can tell when Magneto starts to dash. At the very least, he can make an educated guess, which is more than most characters can do. It's also worth noting that Magneto has to do some guessing as well. If Blackheart comes down blocking when Magneto thinks he's going to come down with short, Blackheart blocks the launcher and resumes his keepaway pattern when he lands. If Magneto goes for a low attack when Blackheart comes down with short, he gets hit by the short, which gets linked into Commando assist, which gets linked into Inferno/HOD. And Magneto just lost over half his life. Granted, the potential risks for Blackheart if he guesses wrong are much higher, and the rewards for Magneto are much greater. But Magneto has to land a clean hit to win the match; Blackheart doesn't.

Magneto can sit at this nice distance where he can dash under blackheart as he comes down. If he does it fast enough, he will go under the SJ.Short. Then, he can cross over you with a triangle jump. At this point, it's a guessing game for Blackheart. This is how Magneto beats everyone. Once he gets in, you practially have to guess unless you know the individual player. AFAIK, no character on the game can go toe to toe with Magneto's speed and priority. You will need assists to get out of this because Blackheart has no other tools to deal with it. At the least, Magneto can just continue to triangle jump at you and vary the timing until he lands a hit. He doesn't have to do anything else because Blackheart has no natural tools to prevent this from happening.

The best thing to do is to just move back as much as possible and make Magneto chase you. Make him run into your assists and J.Fierces. Most people don't use BH's air dash enough, but you can SJ and air dash backwards really close to the ground at jump height to move back fast. You have to use a bit of repetition to lure Magneto into you. That's when you have control. And in truth, it's a lot harder for BH regain control once Magneto gets in than it is for Magneto to set up situations where he can regain control.

quote:
Originally posted by BarrelO

As for throws, like I said earlier, the only way Magneto will be able to do anything after them is if he throws Blackheart into the corner. And the only time I super jump and air dash against Magneto is if I'm trying to get away from the corner.

Or if he has A-Storm he gets right next to you for free. Other assists will give him a free combo afterward too.
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Posted by Limp_Bizkit666 on August 30th, 2001 10:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue

Ok, I play magneto casually but don't play him in tournament. I can do pretty well with him and I do know what I'm doing. Out of RUN I'd say I have the 3rd or fourth best magneto (COMBO FIEND, ID or DAVID L. or ME).

STFU...

yer mag sucks. =]
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cactus who?

STFU!

Posted by LordLocke on August 31st, 2001 03:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Clockw0rk

... or assuming Strider doesn't just block Ken.

Too many posts today! Phew.

- Clockw0rk

If it were that simple, Magneto, Psylocke, and Cammy would all be held in higher reguard, but it isn't that simple. BLOCKING a AAA is easy to SAY you can do. Try doing in on reaction while attempting to beat down the opponent and force them to open up or lock them into place is another. True, it's not like Commando-tough to deal with, but just saying block it is like saying that the person fighting against Strider/Doom simply WILL NOT fall into the trap. It's simple in theory (Don't let Strider get close) but it's nothing so easy in action. Besides, even if blocked, the Ken assist keeps Strider busy for a moment, and that's all many characters need to get away and send Strider back to square one.

Ken forces Strider to take extra precautions when going for the trap, and that few moments of hesitation because of the potental of incoming Ken is costly for Strider/Doom. And if they go like the do against most other teams, they'll wind up sucking on Ken. Still, Strider is one of two characters that has serious potental to snapback, and snapbacking in Ken is an easy way to deal with that little problem.
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Posted by LordLocke on August 31st, 2001 03:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Eric Magnus
Doesn't Cammy's Cannon spike AAA have the same invincibility as Ken's Shoryuken AAA? Has anyone tested her vs. the Strider/Doom trap?

Cammy bounces off Doom Rocks. All Strider does is call Doom early, and Cammy can't do jack to stop Strider from starting the trap.
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Posted by ss on August 31st, 2001 03:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by FluffyXXL

IIRC, There are three scenarios that can happen if you counter to Cable AAA while Doom AAA is hitting you. If you counter to Cable and Strider is right next to you, Cable can hit both of them with the Psimitar. This is also timing dependant, because there are some points where you can hit Doom cleanly with Psimitar and some times when it trades. If this happens, Doom falls out of it and leaves the screen before you can AHVB him.

But if Cable cancels the 2nd hit of the psimitar right into AHVB(aim up), wouldn't him not only hit doom but makes strider block too?

And to Viscant, please answer the questions from my earlier posts. Thanks a lot!

Posted by ss on August 31st, 2001 04:18 AM:

I'm trying thsi question here too. Please someone tell me what happens:

Ok, I have cable/storm/cammy. my opp have storm/sent/cammy. I'm storm, he's sentinel.
he does hsf, I do cahvb against it, but he dhcs to KBA. Can I do hail or kba and beat his kba?
And what if, in reaction to this, he uses his own hail? Can I kba or hail this too? Who will be the final winner?

I don't know if I explained myself very well, but see it this way.

Sent, having Cammy and Storm in back, just did a HSF against me and I CAHVBed it. Now, considering that we both have 5 levels, which of the DHC specials will connect and lead it to a big combo. If it's one from my cable/storm/cammy team, it worths to do the CAHVB. I really would appreacate if someone could make this analysis to me.
In fact, 2. My cable/storm/sent against storm/sent/cammy and my cable/storm/cammy against storm/sent/cammy, all of them at any DHC order

Posted by Clockw0rk on August 31st, 2001 04:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LordLocke

If it were that simple, Magneto, Psylocke, and Cammy would all be held in higher reguard, but it isn't that simple. BLOCKING a AAA is easy to SAY you can do. Try doing in on reaction while attempting to beat down the opponent and force them to open up or lock them into place is another. True, it's not like Commando-tough to deal with, but just saying block it is like saying that the person fighting against Strider/Doom simply WILL NOT fall into the trap. It's simple in theory (Don't let Strider get close) but it's nothing so easy in action. Besides, even if blocked, the Ken assist keeps Strider busy for a moment, and that's all many characters need to get away and send Strider back to square one.

Ken forces Strider to take extra precautions when going for the trap, and that few moments of hesitation because of the potental of incoming Ken is costly for Strider/Doom. And if they go like the do against most other teams, they'll wind up sucking on Ken. Still, Strider is one of blah blah blah blah http://www.clockw0rk.com/ blah blah

Strider takes no extra precautions while doing the trap, not any more so than other AAAs. Trap-wise, the only way Ken SHOULD be nailing you is on Ouro startup, which shouldn't be happening because you're either out of range, or you have them blocking something else already. During the trap (including getting in via teleport/doublejump/whatever), all you have to do is wait for Ken to come out while still getting close enough for the orbs to hit.

When Ken comes out, you block (and start throwing rings right away), and he begins to take damage as well and also alpha countering is no longer an option (which Cyclops takes much better advantage of).

If he hasn't come out, he can't come out anymore due to the blockstun. Just continue with the trap.

Drop Doom on the other side, and cover up the rock holes with Strider chains and Ken can't do anythign to Doom cause he'll be off the screen by then.

Of all AAAs, I think Strider has the most trouble against Cyclops. Not only can he be ACed into XX SOB XX Hail (which you will be punished with if you're not paying attention to the Ouro timer), but Cyke makes it harder to start the trap (if they're Cable) because he's on and off the screen so quickly. He's also x2 more useful than Ken on point.

mad posting

- Clockw0rk

Posted by Goku on August 31st, 2001 06:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Eric Magnus
Doesn't Cammy's Cannon spike AAA have the same invincibility as Ken's Shoryuken AAA? Has anyone tested her vs. the Strider/Doom trap?

Nah

Ken has more invincibility
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Posted by Eric Magnus on August 31st, 2001 12:25 PM:

Yeah that's true, I supppose that she would bounce off the rocks. That sucks. Geez. Now let's say she hits strider instead, could she go through the orosboros?
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Posted by Shuzer on August 31st, 2001 01:10 PM:

My stupid question that someone can answer:

How does Blackheart vs Sentinel match go?
(or specifically, if both were starting on a regular team made for them)

I'm not really experienced with this fight, and would like to see a better view of it.
(I'd post how I see the fight from a scrubby point of view, but I'm kinda low on time right now)

Posted by Chaotic Blue on August 31st, 2001 05:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ss
I'm trying thsi question here too. Please someone tell me what happens:

Ok, I have cable/storm/cammy. my opp have storm/sent/cammy. I'm storm, he's sentinel.
he does hsf, I do cahvb against it, but he dhcs to KBA. Can I do hail or kba and beat his kba?
And what if, in reaction to this, he uses his own hail? Can I kba or hail this too? Who will be the final winner?

I don't know if I explained myself very well, but see it this way.

you best bet agianst an opponent who has cammy next is to DHC into the lightning storn becuase atleast that way you'll both get hit otherwise she'll go through the hail storm and hit you. Cammy is invinbile until she hits you, after that she'll run into some random lightning or something.any other situation hailstorm.

C. Bleu <- Now with french accent!
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Posted by KRaZeEKoReaN on August 31st, 2001 06:28 PM:

I would just like to reiterate a few points that have come across this whole thread and express my opinions.....

There are generally 2 perspectives on how these rankings are being looked at:
1. The characters are being played to their fullest ability i.e. justin's cammy, shadyk's mag
2. No one is perfect and can do it all the time i.e. strider should be ranked lower cuz of this

frankly i think it could go either way. The fact is, at least half da ppl here are biters. They solely defend the character they love and if a top player uses it they'll simply say, well blah blah blah raped u wid dat character at this tourney... CUT DA CRAP
the fact is.... u r not them.... Viscant is right (no im not being a biter) in the fact that the truth is, the character rankings should be seen by who plays them best because they have found out how to use the character to their fullest ability which should be used to consider rankings, although i admit playing ability has something to do with it too. Well Valle raped shady's mag with blackheart... how do you explain hes winning with a low tier character... o cut da shit VALLE is VALLE... hes one of the best players in the nation at a lot of games because simply he is the better player... he understands the game and his opponents.. i bet half the people cant play characters to their fullest ability, and even i admit i cant play like the best of the nation... sure u might be able to triangle jump as well as justin but that doesnt prove shit... it will take serious heaps of practice to get anywhere near justin's overall ability to play the game (once again im not being a biter, im simply stating the facts)

which comes to my opinion: i personally hate tier rankings and character rankings. WHY? because there are seriously too many points to consider and too many retards present to criticize ur points. sure i may have an opinion, but there were always be 10 other people here to shoot me down and tell me im wrong.... i have opinions but the fact is i dont want to go through the trouble of explaining my viewpoints and have bigots still tell me wrong and not considerin outside point of views. another point is many people dont know advance tactics or dont explore the game... I have seriously have sat at home and played to find out mechanics and all and a lot of the rankings here make sense. a perfect strider will win, and u dont need a trap to do it... magneto seriously can't be blocked consistently... the fact is... some ppl can play against other characters extremely well but new tricks are always being learned to get around this... i think a lot of people dont consider snapbacks in the correct way... they are used to get that vulnerable character in and get that bitch character out however a lot of ppl say, o i wont have to deal wid dat character if i snap his ass out, doesnt matter, he will still come in later on, and if the player has good abilities that vulnerable character coming in may most likely live....

although i dont have rankings personally, i still have opinions on who is better than who (u may be thinking well if u have opinions on who is better than who, that is basically rankings, but no, i just think certain characters are better than some, and probably if i sat down and figured out my logic i could make a ranking but im too lazy, im not gonna blatantly go and say 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th etc..)... i think magnus is better than BH becuz of c.roundhouse, a lot of ppl havent realized it and i didnt realize it till a month ago... once u get inside that j.fierce range, BH is toast, if c.roundhouse comes out too late and they are on the ground, super jump cancel... if it hits, blackheart dies..

theres also a lot of other matchups people have discussed and i dont think i reallie need to say anything because just about EVERYTHING has been discussed haha...

as for the rankings viscant put up, i really dont care about what everyone else says, and i think they generally are great, aside from the VERY miniscule opinion of mine that might disagree with viscant, its not enough to actually go bitch about and say BH should be higher or wutever...

anywayz, just wanted to state some opinions of mine and i hope i dont get flamed for it or acting like a biter bleh
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Posted by BarrelO on August 31st, 2001 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue
Ok, I play magneto casually but don't play him in tournament. I can do pretty well with him and I do know what I'm doing. Out of RUN I'd say I have the 3rd or fourth best magneto (COMBO FIEND, ID or DAVID L. or ME).

I guess I'll have to take your word for it.

quote:
Now you misunderstand the sliding priciple. BH's fierce is like dooms, you do it as you NJ (I am talking about normal jumping back and fierce) this is why you can anticipate the demons and time your attack and slide under your opponent. Since the demons dissapear after you call them agian magneto doesn't have to worry about the demons covering the entire area. This of course was still speculation, I've never done it or seen it done. But I have seen people launch or fierce BH while he did it. I jsut prefer to EM Disruptor to get you in my space, like I always say, You dont want me to come to you, then you'll come to me.

I understand completely how Blackheart's fierce works. I know that once the demons disappear, you're screwed until you land. That's why you wait until you're close to the ground before releasing demons. That way, the demons pretty much completely cover the horizontal area in front of Blackheart, and they don't disappear until right before he lands. If Magneto tries to dash in from a distance, he'll either A) run into a demon, or B) arrive when Blackheart lands, at which point he'll be able to block. And as I've said on numerous occasions, If Magneto is close enough to dash in and hit Blackheart before the demons appear, he shouldn't be throwing demons at all.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 31st, 2001 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by FluffyXXL
Magneto can sit at this nice distance where he can dash under blackheart as he comes down. If he does it fast enough, he will go under the SJ.Short. Then, he can cross over you with a triangle jump. At this point, it's a guessing game for Blackheart. This is how Magneto beats everyone. Once he gets in, you practially have to guess unless you know the individual player. AFAIK, no character on the game can go toe to toe with Magneto's speed and priority. You will need assists to get out of this because Blackheart has no other tools to deal with it. At the least, Magneto can just continue to triangle jump at you and vary the timing until he lands a hit. He doesn't have to do anything else because Blackheart has no natural tools to prevent this from happening.

I'm pretty sure I said earlier that Blackheart needs assists to win this matchup. I freely admit that Magneto getting in on an assistless Blackheart is an ugly situation waiting to happen.

quote:
The best thing to do is to just move back as much as possible and make Magneto chase you. Make him run into your assists and J.Fierces. Most people don't use BH's air dash enough, but you can SJ and air dash backwards really close to the ground at jump height to move back fast. You have to use a bit of repetition to lure Magneto into you. That's when you have control. And in truth, it's a lot harder for BH regain control once Magneto gets in than it is for Magneto to set up situations where he can regain control.

Agreed.

quote:
Or if he has A-Storm he gets right next to you for free. Other assists will give him a free combo afterward too.

Of characters usually seen in the second slot behind Magneto, Storm, Cable, and Sentinel are by far the most common. Of those, only Storm and Sentinel can be used to get next to opponents. (I guess you could put Cable on alpha, but then you lose counter into AHVB.) Against Sentinel (assuming that Magneto doesn't have him on alpha for combo purposes), Blackheart can call his own Sentinel assist. The drones will cancel each other out, and Sentinel will obstruct the ground, keeping Magneto from dashing in. Against Storm, Blackheart can again call Sentinel. The drones won't cancel out the typhoon, but Sentinel's super armor will keep the typhoon from knocking him out. Blackheart still has to block the typhoon, but this time there are two things (the drones and Sentinel himself) that keep Magneto from dashing in with impunity.
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Posted by BarrelO on August 31st, 2001 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Shuzer
My stupid question that someone can answer:

How does Blackheart vs Sentinel match go?
(or specifically, if both were starting on a regular team made for them)

I'm not really experienced with this fight, and would like to see a better view of it.
(I'd post how I see the fight from a scrubby point of view, but I'm kinda low on time right now)

Sentinel wins this one pretty cleanly. Blackheart has zero safe offensive options when they're both on the ground, so he has to take to the sky. But Blackheart and Commando assist give a super jumping Blackheart lots of problems, and Sentinel ususally has at least one of those. Plus, since demons don't break super armor, Sentinel can just stand under him, eat a few demons, wait for him to come down, and land the combo of his choice. Of course, Blackheart can just block on the way down from a super jump, but that gives Sentinel a chance to get above him, and without a good AAA, Blackheart is screwed. Granted, Blackheart can hang with Sentinel in an air-to-air confrontation, but Sentinel doesn't even need to leave the ground if Blackheart's doing a lot of super jumping.
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Where there's smoke, there's fun!

Posted by Ceo NB on August 31st, 2001 08:58 PM:

Fuck the bull!! Strider rules if you know how to use him. Plus, he is by far the coolest looking character. It's just really hard to master him. He has so many different moves. I think the reason people don't use him cause this is america baby. We, all want everthing done fast not right, people rather use cable then strider. It sucks for a strider play to work so hard then get caught with AHVB and the guy has 5 bars!! Also, people use mag cause he is flashy, I know the first time I saw someone do a 80+ hit with him. I was sold on him lol. But now everybody knows about mashing out of the HG and not staying still always air block against maggy. The only way to get good with strider is to play often. But there is a nothing a strider can't do. I just wish I could cancel out of the orbs like in the first one he he. If I want to cancel I gotta do a team super which sucks shit crumbs I use Strider, doom, and cammy. I have been using cammy since SSF. Everybody looks at the vids of Alex and etc and thinks hey he uses them so they are good. What makes their characters good is the PLAYA PLAYAING it bottom line. If that weren't the case scrubs would be pro's. Did everybody forget that this is a video game???? It's not based on muscle being faster or stronger, this is a toned down matrix people. Some of you guys really need to take the red pill. If you want to get good practice it's not just the character it's the person, and not the controller like so many scrubs claim (I didn't press the button lol). Don't just watch mike z vids do your own shit and remember it takes time to master a character. It's not just about knowing the moves it's about knowing when to use them effectively. That's the difference between the good and the great. The great ones are all thinkers and could teach a class in the science of this game. Their adaptation is ten times quicker than the ave gamer.

Big Props to clockw0rk those vids of you kicking ass, makes Strider players like me proud!! I want to see more strider vids on your site!
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I'm your hero, I'm the guy that teaches you that, you have been living a lie. That you really suck, that all your friends have been feeding you lies. That your really living in the matrix. I'm your hero "The Ceo NB"
You lost when you pressed start.

Posted by Wizard6 on August 31st, 2001 09:01 PM:

he he he !!!
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Puerto Rico Rules !!!!! Team Harcore Forever !!!

Posted by Wizard6 on August 31st, 2001 09:23 PM:

he he he !!!
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Puerto Rico Rules !!!!! Team Harcore Forever !!!

Posted by BlackShinobi on August 31st, 2001 09:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wizard6
he he he !!!

Spamming in Sticky threads is not only Stupid its also

God, I had to waste a post on that
Avatar/attention crazing Newbies
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56 characters
8000+ members
less than 10 anakaris users
does this seem strange to anyone else

R.I.P Baby Girl

Posted by Limp_Bizkit666 on September 1st, 2001 01:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wizard6
he he he !!!

request to ban..

idiot
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Rags Under Nads...

that's what you'll smell like when you piss on your pants.

-----
oh, and do you know cactus?

cactus who?

STFU!

Posted by HHZ on September 1st, 2001 05:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wizard6
he he he !!!

what a frikkin dumbass... i hate seeing this bs on posts, threads, and forums like at shoryuken, ign, anywhere... someone please ban or suspend him or sumthin...
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i am THE answer_
-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by NerenatwaH on September 1st, 2001 08:04 AM:

Hm. More on Strider.

Personally. I think that BH/Strider/Doom can be the best team if played effectively. Think.

BH/Strider/Doom. BH is there to build meter for Strider and have Doom for chipping. With this combination, people like Magneto loose especially since BH is so good at keeping away (takes little effort) Doom is there for chipping and gaurding the ground for him.

Say you have Cable problems. You can simply wait untill the versus screen and switch Doom or Strider on point. Both who counter Cable well. If it's Sent. Have Strider on point, same if it's BH who you're up against.

Etc.Etc. I don't think that there's any real team to directly counter this team. And I realize that no one uses this team in tourney's (probably because Strider/Doom is too hard to use in the first place.) Iono this is just what I think.
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Posted by iRoNMaN!|LiU| on September 1st, 2001 02:32 PM:

Yo thats c00l viscant. I was playing some black kid at PLK over the summer and he said that he beat you. HE was a blad, small black kid that has buck teeth and wore a DBZ shirt. He looked about 10-12, do u remeber him at all? Anyways me and my friends kicked his ass.
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Posted by Esthar SD on September 1st, 2001 08:03 PM:

.: Determining teir ranks is become more and more difficult to decide due to certian popularity of certian characters, when it comes down to these aspects players thus prove why! ex.viscants doom: he has proved time and time agian that doom is an effective charcter. What we here on shoryuken like to call top teir. Although it is hard who to call top teir, up to a few months ago it was these nine:

(in random order)
1.blackheart
2.sentinal
3.storm
4.magneto
5.cyclops
6.spiral
7.cable
8.strider
9.doom

Now these charcters are supposed to have the highest win ratio, which is still true to an extent...

but good players are proved that these characters are for a reason now there proving that "lower tier" characters are just as effective.

the japanese are a great example of this ex. dhalism, megaman, thanos

charcters are one there best with a good assist to back them up, the only one i can think of that can dominate for an extent of time without assists is sentinal.

because of this teams with above average assist are becoming more and more victrous!

i have been playing marvel vs. capcom 2 for a good year now and have seen what charcters are capable of..here is my list(strictly opinion)

1st teir
1.magneto/storm/sentinal
4.strider
5.spiral
6.doom/ironman
8.cable
9.captian commando

2nd teir
10.blackheart/cyclops
12.psylocke/dhalism
14.cammy/rogue/ken
17.megaman
18.war machine
19.thanos
20.felica
21.bison
22.hulk
23.juggernant
24.rubyheart/jill/iceman
27.tron/amingo/servebot
30.akuma/ryu
3rd teir

The rest:.

Magneto: why do I place magneto at the top? dispite all the storm lovers he still has the fastest rushdown in the game, that can leave your opponent in confusion. Many complian that magneto is to predictable..his game is old, although this isent the case, people are simply not good enough with him the good magnetos stand out of the crowd ex. shady k, justin wong,ROM
even though magnetos assist are pretty pathetic who ever uses him for an assist?

this guy can trap with triangle jumps and pretty much dominate in agianst every charcter.Now here comes the disput why magneto is not at the top nemore...

hypergravXXmagnetic tempest

yes, it is mashable and now very commonly being used, thus ruining magnetos very scary tempest combos.

many people dont relize or care that even if mashed in the corner your still hit. now in gameplay its getting very hard to launch a good oppnent, what with great keepaway and all.

after all this time the old guys still kicks sum ass!!

2.storm: yes, justin did win with her at B5 and proved the bitch is one of the best. Her keepaway and rushdown make here a character for every situation, even when not on point here assist are quite good and a good trapper! when storm is set with the right assist watch out!!

3.Sentinal: still one top after all this time..alex valle proved he was just as good of rushdown as magnus or storm dominating vast magorities of the screen.
StOMPING!! too good!!

4.strider: doom need i say more?

5.spiral: she is such a great charcater and her teleport can be very irratating at times, her wall of sword takes down cables, sentinals and sum of the best rushdown ever!

6.doom: the trap-mister, a good player can take down many with his photon shots and photon array super, air dash is essential..a smart doom player can dominate better than you expect!

7.Ironman: you may be confused why i placed iron man in front of cyclops!!..i know iron man has shitty assists compared to cyc.. but his trapping game and infintes make him a billion time better that cyclops when placed on point im sure many will agree too...

8.cable: ahhh the infamous cable..the reason i placed this guys so low(no im not a cable hater) is that his game is getting very old and really pradictable..still is on the list cause of his AHVB!!

9.Captian commando: valle proved this mofo can do a whole shit load, when alone..great assist and THE best anti-air character in the game!!

teams like magneto.storm, sentinal will not dominate thou because they arent balanced a team like valles blackheart, sent, capcom are very balnce and benift on another, this makes the game even more challaging!!

peace

esthar
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Posted by HHZ on September 1st, 2001 09:30 PM:

i agree with esthar sd. cable's game is getting predictable, BUT he does have a game that is painful... but for magneto, deadly combos without tempests are possible, as he does have one of the fastest rushdowns, and along with the right aaa's, theres no need to complain that he getting predictable becuz theyre there to bak him up or rather front him up... i agree with most of the rankings but i have to admit that magneto shud be at least 3-4 as cable shud be higher. he shud be at least 5 or maybe even 2nd. he is ez to use but he is also pretty dangerous, but he gets scru'd up wit strider/doom and others like spiral but the whole trick with spiral is to use strider...but gettin off subj so... peace out people.. one last thing, what the hell is capcom doing higher than cammy?
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i am THE answer_
-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by Cornelius on September 2nd, 2001 12:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by NerenatwaH
Hm. More on Strider.

Personally. I think that BH/Strider/Doom can be the best team if played effectively. Think.

BH/Strider/Doom. BH is there to build meter for Strider and have Doom for chipping. With this combination, people like Magneto loose especially since BH is so good at keeping away (takes little effort) Doom is there for chipping and gaurding the ground for him.

Say you have Cable problems. You can simply wait untill the versus screen and switch Doom or Strider on point. Both who counter Cable well. If it's Sent. Have Strider on point, same if it's BH who you're up against.

Etc.Etc. I don't think that there's any real team to directly counter this team. And I realize that no one uses this team in tourney's (probably because Strider/Doom is too hard to use in the first place.) Iono this is just what I think.

1) Doom does NOT counter Cable.
2) Have you not been reading the thread? Everyone has agreed that BH without a good anti air (your team) gets raped by Mags.
3) Cable by himself owns 2/3 of your team for free.
4) Cable/(chipping/trapping assist)/Ken AAA OCVs your team.

Posted by Esthar SD on September 2nd, 2001 03:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HHZ
i agree with esthar sd. cable's game is getting predictable, BUT he does have a game that is painful... but for magneto, deadly combos without tempests are possible, as he does have one of the fastest rushdowns, and along with the right aaa's, theres no need to complain that he getting predictable becuz theyre there to bak him up or rather front him up... i agree with most of the rankings but i have to admit that magneto shud be at least 3-4 as cable shud be higher. he shud be at least 5 or maybe even 2nd. he is ez to use but he is also pretty dangerous, but he gets scru'd up wit strider/doom and others like spiral but the whole trick with spiral is to use strider...but gettin off subj so... peace out people.. one last thing, what the hell is capcom doing higher than cammy?

now that i revsied and looked over my response cable should be a little higher, imo cammy is better then commando but i put commado higher simple because his anti air game, a good commado player could murder cammy..i personally like cammy better but i have to be honest!
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Posted by HHZ on September 2nd, 2001 04:55 AM:

i was juss wonderin but sum1 sed that cammy's aaa "heatseeks," but from what i found, it doesnt... iz good tho...
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-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by BlackShinobi on September 2nd, 2001 05:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HHZ
i was juss wonderin but sum1 sed that cammy's aaa "heatseeks," but from what i found, it doesnt... iz good tho...

you can't cross her assist up like other anti airs, she will change direction to hit you where you are and not where you were when she was called.
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R.I.P Baby Girl

Posted by HHZ on September 2nd, 2001 05:16 AM:

ooh... okay cuz this guy sed there was so i gess it's right
__________________
i am THE answer_
-----------------------
current status (approx.)
2 tourneys... 3rd, 5th
approx. in tourneys: 7 w. - 5 l.

Posted by ss on September 2nd, 2001 05:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic Blue

you best bet agianst an opponent who has cammy next is to DHC into the lightning storn becuase atleast that way you'll both get hit otherwise she'll go through the hail storm and hit you. Cammy is invinbile until she hits you, after that she'll run into some random lightning or something.any other situation hailstorm.

C. Bleu <- Now with french accent!

Thanks, but what if I'm playing at other order(like cammy or sent after cable). Will my own KBA be able to beat or trade hits with my opps KBA even if I do it after him(pretty much like Cyclops MOB, the later one wins)? And what about HSF, won't the drones make Cammy bounce off? Last, why Cammy won't go through the lightning storm but will beat the hail? thanks a lot

Posted by mt on September 2nd, 2001 07:14 AM:

This talk about execution mades me have some thoughts.
I really think Japanese have better combos/execution because we’re playing the engine for more time. Sometimes it seems to me that the US players barely played the earlier vs games.

Things like GBs, wavedashes, triangle jumps and now the sj cancel are all things that I knew from MvC1. In fact, there’s even more than this that I think it will be soon the new “waves”of MvC2 overall execution.

GBs were already famous at US(RV). Triangle jumps are a feature explored by characters like Morrigan at MvC1, and but are needed for infinites since older vs games. Infinites firstly have developed the use of the crouch cancel too, a long long time ago. Wavedashs were at all vs games(it’s just a very easy variation of the crouch cancel principles, in fact).
Sj cancels were used at Wolverine’s TT at MvC1. You could use the several possible times to sj after a launcher to put Wolverine at TT positions. That were frames in that you could sj and got 1 throw, while at other you could setup an entire TT strat. A different use than punish assists, but an old feature.

This all makes me think that maybe the main problem with US execution is the lack of exploit in previous engines. You can see that by the fact that US has far superior skills using the assist system than Japan.

Before I forget, I think I should put already here the things that might be considered the new tactics of MvC2 overall execution. First, and very important at MvC1 to work the angles for (or even more against) the TT, it’s what I could call wavedash back. It seems that US players don’t do that, although it’s almost as easy as the wavedash itself, and can help you to get in position for keepaway, call assists, sj(catch flying opps in their faces)or whatever. Just do a dash back instead of a regular one at each “wave” ou try. Second, sj. extended throws. I have discussed this feature superficially already talking about MvC1 TT.
When you’re moving in the air you can throw before you normally do and the game will delay the throw a little for you if you need it. It’s barely perceptible, but you can use this during sjs(specially) jumps or even air dashes to throw your opponents from places your regular throw range couldn’t do it, and even throw some limbs or whatever if they’re trying to attack you and you’re at the right angle(TT principles). If you try it out you’ll soon realize what I am talking about.

These features were used in Japan before MvC2 came out, so in a month the good players were already able to use it all at MvC2, which americans couldn’t. Of course, Americans realized much better the properties and uses of the assist game(which remains true until these days, look at B5). But I think that if someone could use the best of the two worlds, it would be awesome.

The other reason for the lack of the execution, and that’s the one you keep talking about, it’s your laziness . Viscant, on the his post, seems to contradicts himself whne he saids that the players needs to try to master all the useful things(Cyclops infinite is the example) and at the same time he saids that Magneto is faster than the human reactions, which isn’t true at all.
I know that japanese Magneto players aren’t as good as the best American ones, but even that, with not much MvC2 experience(I’m still a MvC1 player when it comes to the vs series), never got beaten by a Mags player at any tourney(and I’m far from be the best guy to use assists too). The thing is, when you have practiced enough to have really fast and solid block and tech throwing reflexes you CAN block whatever he tries against you. When I lose at tourneys it’s always for chip teams as Spiral/Sentinel/Commando style, but never to an inclose char like Magneto or offensive-infinite oriented IMs.
Instead of say “that’s impossible, let’s move on” you should say “I will do that”and then go go for it. I use to practice MvC1 reflexes on DC to use the 10 stars speed to enhance my blocking and capitalize abilities and I could did it almost as well as into the normal speed game. If you practice, you get used to it. Matches like RV vs Lilith at DC turbo 10 stars are faster than Magneto vs Magneto at MvC2’s turbo 2. Try and see it.
I can force the best players around here to use chip/runaway/space controlling assist teams using weirdos like Wolverine and Morrigan on point, that’s because I have really good knowledge and reflexes of the basics of the engine. Since I don’t play it enough to have knowledge about all the matchups and how to use my assists against assist, I can’t be the #1 here, but I do an excellent job when it comes to the inclose game.

I don’t know if my bad skills with your language makes me reach the point here, but what I’m trying to say is to learn everything you can, because one day you’ll see it used against you. I’ve read people saying that Cyclops infinite and deadbodies were just for fun a while ago here, and now that hey saw people doing it for real they’re trying to master it. Don’t wait, learn it now. Dhalsim infinite, Spiral/Sabretooth, Dhalsim and sakura’s runaway, Storm infinite and other stuff are all useful in some ways if you have afforded enough to learn it. Don’t gave up on things easily, do it.

BTW1 – I know that it’s easier to keep Magneto away than to block and throw everything he does, this doesn’t mean that’s not possible and that you have already failed when he gets close to you, even with Psylocke and a confusion assist(Anakaris, Bonerine) on the back.

BTW2 – I’m not here to flame. I agree with most things said by Viscant(specially considering that he’s better at MvC2 than my entire country) but this doesn’t means that he can’t be wrong at some things, like the possibility to block Magneto and the existence of the TT(this last was the debate that makes me start posting here).

BTW3 – I forgot about VC specials , which were possible at the PSX version of MSF, crossover mode. Of course, almost none japanese or american top player gave that version credit enough to accomplish something with it, but I saw people at srk and here too talking about it as “news” months after the MvC2 launcher.

I hope you all have a good time, and maybe I see you at B6!

Posted by DeathFromAbove on September 2nd, 2001 07:41 AM:

My $0.02:

Blackheart doesn't "beat" Mags. He just builds 4 levels of HC while burning 33 seconds and frustrating the hell out of the opponent. Then he counters for a teammate who does the real damage.

Mags/Storm/xxx beats BH/anything. For assist, Storm-A fucks his low air & ground game, and SJing is just plain stupid. To a lesser extent, Sent-Y and Doom-B also hurt him.

Jumpback HP does not stop rushdown cold. It is still effective though, since you can call assists and airdash before/during/after the attack. Screw with their head.

There's no reason for BH to avoid "melee distance" completely. As long as it's on your terms, s'okay. You can always push him back out of there with S.HK + assist.

BH doesn't have to go to Mags to get close-range offensive opportunities. Bait his ass into you or sandwich him between yourself/demons/assists, then push him off, chip him, or throw him.

Final thought: Most Mags teams have the tools to beat BH, but most Mags players don't know how to do it.

-DFA
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Posted by KungfuJoe on September 2nd, 2001 08:11 AM:

good topic I always thought that mag has big problems with colosus a character that is very under rated mind you.
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Posted by NerenatwaH on September 2nd, 2001 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornelius

1) Doom does NOT counter Cable.
2) Have you not been reading the thread? Everyone has agreed that BH without a good anti air (your team) gets raped by Mags.
3) Cable by himself owns 2/3 of your team for free.
4) Cable/(chipping/trapping assist)/Ken AAA OCVs your team.

1) Doom has an advantage over Cable. Hence being able to counter but not directly.
2) I have been reading the thread. Yes BH without a good anti does get raped by Mags. But...

What Viscant pointed out was that all Mags has to do is wavedash and then c.hk sj.cancel to kill BH. Doom blocks off the floor where Mags will not be able to do that anymore and from there BH could simply stay in the air and throw demons or whatever. Usually that shouldn't be a big problem considering that BH don't chip but that's what Doom is there for.
Plus. Strider/Doom kills Mags. As they do most everyone else.

3) Cable doesn't own 2/3 of the team. Maybe 1/3. Strider/Doom directly counters Cable. Cable can't do shit against this team unless he has Ken. Again. Doom has an advantage over Cable.

4) Hmm. So you're saying that Cable/Storm/Ken kills BH/Strider/Doom (or anycombination of those three) correct?

It could. You have to play smarter than the Strider/Doom player.

All Strider/Doom has to do is wait for Cable to call Ken, and do something that maybe hasn't occured to most people here BLOCK. That's it. Even against Felicia all he has to do is wait and block.

If Cable throws out Storm to stop rocks Strider's teleport simply stops Cable.

And it's not my team. So shaddup.
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